Over the back par-3 greens

[Thomas Dai]

There was comment on a recent thread about a par-3 where the green sloped significantly down from front-to-rear such that most second shots would be played from the rear area of the green or even from over the back.


Obviously most of the green even though it's on a slope should be pin-able and putt-able but would a par-3 (or even a par-4 or a par-5) akin to this be a bad thing?


Are there any examples of such around and if so where?



Atb

[Mark Pearce]

Errr....


Isn't that the Redan?

[Tom_Doak]

Errr....


Isn't that the Redan?

Yes, the original Redan is exactly that.  You've got to be strong enough to miss it long left, and carry the bunker, but if you can get it back there your second shot is a simple uphill chip.

[David_Tepper]

The green on the par-3 second hole at Golspie slopes front-to-back.

[Thomas Dai]

I was thinking of holes/greens with less internal angle than a Redan.
A couple I have seen are the short 13th at Whittington Heath (where numerous holes have greens higher at the front than at the rear) and the somewhat longer 14th at Enville (Highgate) but my query is really whether they are a good or bad thing?
If a player comes up short then they have to chip onto a downslope, if a players ball lands directly on the green but without enough height it will bounce/run through the back of the green. Good or bad thing?
Atb

[Bill Vogeney]

8th at Oakmont. You won't necessarily feed all of the way over the back, but ball will tend to run to the back of green. Years ago I was playing as a guest of a good friend and in our group was the great John Birmingham. John played in like 12 US Ams, is a member of OCC and Seminole, and won the North-South back on the day. At age 69, John shot 71 that day. John and the rest of the group all came up short and made par. I ran all of the way to the back and had 60 feet up the hill to a front pin position...and three jacked. My host Chris told me they all laid up because of the front pin-the members rarely missed long when the pin was up front.

[Sean_A]

ATB


I like front to backers quite a bit, but they only really work on firm courses.  Of course, sometimes they can be quite severe such as 10 at Whittington Heath and 11 at Kington.  I don't even mind front to backers with a bunker set well in front of the green....Brancaster's 18th is an excellent example and perhaps the best bunker on the entire course. Whenever I see a bunker set well away from greens I am immediately thinking there is a harsh slope to contend with. Its disappointing this type of bunkering is no longer in favour.  I guess all the rage to give bunkers higher profiles to look pretty would cause some visbility issues in these cases...just another reason of why it takes all sorts of bunkers t get the job done.


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Beau Desert has a few sloping down from front to rear, the 13th and 15th in particular and your spot on about the 10th at Whittington Heath, I don't recall seeing one quite so severe.
As to frontal bunkering, good point. There are a few away sloping greens with bunkering short at South Staffs. SS at Wolverhampton is worth visiting.
Atb

[Sean_A]

ATB


I would think par 3s are perfect opportunities to combine a set back fronting bunker with a sloping away green. 


Ciao

[Greg Tallman]

While it is a par 4 Doak's 5th at Bay of Dreams (NLE) had this characteristic.

As I recall there was a bunker perhaps 10-15 yards short of the left front of the green, a somewhat abrupt rise up to the putting surface which ran way from the golfer significantly (subtle to the eye but the damn ball can't see and thought it was significant). Beyond the green was maybe 15-20 yards of flattish fairway height turf.
 
Did not really like it the first time I played it - believe I came up short to a frontish pin (stop smiling Doak!). When I got up to the surface and looked around I did just that, just kinda stopped and looked around, thinking to myself "this is weird". During subsequent plays I gained appreciation for this design (much like the rest of the course) and made sure ant miss was long which left a rather easy up and in.