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archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Galloway National or Hidden Creek
« on: December 11, 2016, 09:34:31 AM »
 ??? :P




At the risk of getting in trouble with some of my friends who have hosted me so graciously at these excellent clubs over the years I'm acknowledging both are very good if different stylistically !


If you had to choose one as "special" which would it be ?



Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Galloway National or Hidden Creek
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2016, 01:09:59 PM »
  Not a close call for me.  Hidden Creek every time.  Hidden Creek is way more fun - wider fairways, more interesting bunkering, much better routing, fairer green complexes, way less penal.  Full disclosure - I don't like Galloway a little bit.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Galloway National or Hidden Creek
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2016, 01:43:58 PM »
Before I moved to the desert 4.5 years ago, I played Galloway twice and Hidden Creek five times. I agree with Jim...not even close. On a 10 play, I'd shut out Galloway.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 02:13:26 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Galloway National or Hidden Creek
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2016, 02:09:47 PM »
I've played both frequently (over 6X each), most recently back-to-back this October.


Hidden Creek was long my preference, and agree with Jim that it's architecture is more conducive to fun. It's routing is more certainly more intimate and walking friendly, but it's property(sandy pine barrens.....no preponderance of wetlands or swamp) lends itself to well to an easier routing. My hats off to Roger Hansen and ownership for encouraging Bill & Ben to successfully re-create a heathlands-style course on US sandy soil. It is a warm and low-key club.


Galloway is a wholly different animal and should be treated as such. It is to Hidden Creek, what apples are to oranges or Van Gogh is to Cezanne. It's big, challenging, a maximal design, more aerial and less intimate than HC. That said, it is impeccably maintained, plenty wide off the tee, beautifully bunkered and equally a blast to play. More exacting for shot-making surely, but no less fun as areas have been opened up over the years and new tees have allowed for shorter players to find their fun quotient without any brutalistic forced carries.


In my opinion it's one of Fazio's better designs and the routing, while not the coziest of walks, likely evolved from the inherent difficulty of having to use, and connect, different tracts of land ranging from sandy soil to swampy wetlands. There's very little chance the State of NJ would permit a course of it's scale there today. Surely, Faz moved some dirt while building it, but it's not as egregious as many other works of his.


This past October in NJ was glorious by every count, for growing and maintaining firm turf grasses, yet HC played demonstrably slower and softer than I ever seen before. Ground game shots that would normal chase onto greens didn't and green speeds were noticeably slower than I'd ever seen there. Playing strategy needed adjusting and it was perplexing? Our caddy mentioned that the course was much softer and slower this year, yet couldn't tell us why? Next day, in a steady drizzle, GN played plenty fast from fairway through the greens and it produced a distinctive contrast from the previously sunny day at HC. I was so pleased by the firmness that I stuck around after the drizzle disappeared and played another swift 18.


Both are special IMHO and aren't easy nor fair to compare heads-up.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Galloway National or Hidden Creek
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2016, 06:25:08 PM »
Agree with the above. I've played both many times and would be happy to play either again. I'd split 8-2 or 7-3 Hidden Creek.
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Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Galloway National or Hidden Creek
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2016, 06:46:37 PM »

If you had to choose one as "special" which would it be ?


Everyday golf course - Hidden Creek


One time play - Galloway


Everyday club - Greate Bay


Yes, I would get tired of Pine Valley everyday!!
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 07:58:57 PM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Galloway National or Hidden Creek
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2016, 09:47:04 PM »
No contest Hidden Creek wins.


Galloway is too much target golf. HC has much more strategy.


Flynn suggests that golf is about recovery. HC shines in this regard. Galloway is about staying out of trouble.


HC greens are subtle but devilish. Galloway's greens have plates that fight nature in some instances.
AKA Mayday

John Sabino

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Galloway National or Hidden Creek
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2016, 10:38:06 AM »
Agreed, Hidden Creek much more fun than Galloway, you can bump and run the ball more and more variety in the types of holes. Plus the added bonus of no water hazards at Hidden Creek and much less likelihood of getting attacked by midges/bugs since it's away from the bay.


I don't mean to dis Galloway it is a great golf course and an enjoyable Fazio routing, it's just comparing it to one of the great courses in New Jersey is a high bar
Author: How to Play the World's Most Exclusive Golf Clubs and Golf's Iron Horse - The Astonishing, Record-Breaking Life of Ralph Kennedy

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Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Galloway National or Hidden Creek
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2016, 11:08:48 AM »

If you had to choose one as "special" which would it be ?


Everyday golf course - Hidden Creek


One time play - Galloway


Everyday club - Greate Bay


Yes, I would get tired of Pine Valley everyday!!


Mike Sweeney summed it up perfectly. If i'm in the area very rarely and have the opportunity to play one, play Galloway.


As others have said they are completely different types of golf courses, but both strong.


I too would play Hidden Creek on a more frequent basis, probably 8-2 or 7-3. Keep in mind most outside of this board would probably choose otherwise.


And yes...Greate Bay would be a great place to be a member at, solid golf course where you can always find a good game with great guys.



You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Galloway National or Hidden Creek
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2016, 11:58:21 AM »
  Not a close call for me.  Hidden Creek every time.  Hidden Creek is way more fun - wider fairways, more interesting bunkering, much better routing, fairer green complexes, way less penal.  Full disclosure - I don't like Galloway a little bit.

OK James ,why no love for Galloway?

As far as my choice HC 6-4. But I love them both. Never played Galloway in less than a two club wind, so that has some influence on my decision, but I would jump in the car now to play either.
HC 10-0 on the French Onion Soup chart. Best I have had in years.

ed
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Bill Crane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Galloway National or Hidden Creek
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2016, 02:22:10 PM »
No contest Hidden Creek wins.

Galloway is too much target golf. HC has much more strategy.

Flynn suggests that golf is about recovery. HC shines in this regard. Galloway is about staying out of trouble.

HC greens are subtle but devilish. Galloway's greens have plates that fight nature in some instances.




I concur!! On the money.


For regular home club golf it's Hidden Creek.  And very walkable, too.


Gallaway is one of Fazio's more interesting designs and an attractive setting. While I like going there I would rather play Hidden Creek regularly.


HC is a little subtle, and I am sure it would grow on you like it's cousin in South Carolina, C3 - Chechessee Creek Club.


As noted, Bugs can be a killer at Galloway, but they are offset by the views.   Not as enjoyable a  walk as H C- either.




Bill
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Galloway National or Hidden Creek
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2016, 02:34:42 PM »
Bill,


Flynn guys are all alike.
AKA Mayday

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Galloway National or Hidden Creek
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2016, 03:25:39 PM »
Archie,
I would be curious to hear what "Doak scale" values you and others give to these two courses?  I might for example, prefer to play my home course Lehigh CC more often than I would Pine Valley or Oakmont, but that doesn't mean I think it is a better golf course.  All I will say about Galloway is that of the 50 or so Fazio courses I have played and studied, Galloway ranks up there among his best!  It is that good and a solid 8 on the Doak scale in my humble opinion.  I love Hidden Creek as well (I will admit, I haven't played it as many times as Galloway) but of the 20 or so C&C courses I have played, it wouldn't make the top five.  C&C design great tracks so the competition is tough but on the Doak scale, I would be hard pressed to give Hidden Creek anything above a 7.  A Doak 7 for me puts it in my Top 250.  An 8 is in my Top 100.  I still love Hidden Creek and hope to get back again soon and maybe my assessment will go up.
Mark


Note:  The one thing I absolutely hate about both courses (especially Galloway) are the bugs.  You can get eaten alive on those courses to the point where you almost can't play golf.  Bug spray seems to just get them more excited  ??? [size=78%]  Winter is the best time to play both![/size]
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 04:57:19 PM by Mark_Fine »

Anton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Galloway National or Hidden Creek
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2016, 04:51:57 PM »

I'll be the odd man out..... Galloway.  Since 10 rounds seem to be the norm on this post I would say 7-3 in favor of Galloway.  Both are tremendous layouts and very enjoyable.  I have played many more rounds at Galloway than at Hidden, but I feel I can assess both without being bias.  Galloway has more variety than Hidden in my opinion.  I find Hidden to be bland and wanting more out of the round (especially in the par 4s).  Galloway throws everything at you on both nines.  Excellent par 3s, a wide swath of par 4s in every length, and great risk reward par 5s. Also, it is very well balanced in both target golf and ground game.  After the first round there I remembered every hole, but at Hidden I felt I only remembered the par 5 3rd & 9th, the short uphill par 3 11th (great hole), and the well appointed lodge. 


As another poster noted, these are like comparing apples and oranges.  Different strokes for different folks.  Both are excellent tests of golf and that cannot be denied.   

“I've spent most of my life golfing - the rest I've just wasted”

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Galloway National or Hidden Creek
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2016, 11:23:36 AM »
I think I would split the play. I enjoy both courses. As many have said they are very different animals.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Galloway National or Hidden Creek
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2016, 02:43:46 PM »
I enjoy both very much.  I've had the pleasure of playing HC multiple times now.  GN just once, about 5 years ago in a mid-winter round organized by a GCAer and it was a really fun day.

Photo albums of both:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/HiddenCreek/

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/Galloway/
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Galloway National or Hidden Creek
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2016, 03:12:12 PM »
I love this question...as it comes down to "What do you want out of the golf experience?"


Both are in great settings for the game of golf; private clubs with ample protections from the outside world.  You are in your own golf enclave.


Galloway is more of a test of golf than Hidden Creek is.  So, if you think a golf course is supposed to test your game and see if you can hit all the shots and handle the difficult situation...you will like Galloway.


Hidden Creek is more of a journey across naturally beautiful terrain rather than a ball busting test of golf, but, make no mistake, Hidden Creek is no pushover.  So, if you like natural beauty in a golf course...you'd probably prefer Hidden Creek.


I'd argue that Hidden Creek would fit the GW criteria list better...highlighted by the Walk in the Park.


While Galloway National would fit the GD criteria better...highlighted by the Resistance to Scoring.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Galloway National or Hidden Creek
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2016, 04:01:31 PM »
I would tend to agree with most of the opinions, and think Mac Plumart may have summed it up best.

I'd probably split them 5-5 and enjoy them both a great deal.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Galloway National or Hidden Creek New
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2016, 06:41:29 PM »





I purposefully waited to hear the opinions . Enjoyed them all !    I'm a Galloway guy , remember its a special day not play with all my buddies . You can't play Galloway with a bunch of bad players , its too tough . Same with Pine Valley.  Every time  I play Galloway I think it's special.  Fazio believes its one of his best , I concur .


Really cool shot values and elevation changes at Galloway , great views of the water in many spots.  It"s way cool.. Some crazy greens but I'm not fond of mega micro contours at HC , too much for me .  Don't like putts that break five ways from six feet. .  Both nice , nice golf courses .


Almost impossible in these times to build another course with wetland proximity like Galloway. Many of  the views are amazing. You see miles of water from a bunch of tees . .Probably one of the most interesting starting holes in NJ along with number 1 at Pine Valley . You better be ready to go , don't skip a few warm up shots here. A smattering of short par fours that require precision and putting . Some holes that don't really move the soul , number three and eleven come to mind , but you could argue even on those two that strategy is really , really important .


You have to strap your boots on tight here, yet its easy to see the shots that will work here in your mind. Not so easy to hit  them for us amateurs.  For one play its Galloway!



 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 08:03:31 AM by archie_struthers »

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