Barriers to taking up golf

[Tom_Doak]

But little courses for kids are completely uneconomic?

No public facility would build one as kids don't pay taxes or green fees, don't drink beer and don't vote.
Most private clubs don't have the space

There's a difference between "unprofitable" and "uneconomic."


We built a nine-hole kids course at CommonGround essentially for free as part of the re-do there.  We salvaged sand from the old course to build nine small greens.  It has been an enormous success, attracting all sorts of school programs, and being an integral part of their Caddie and Leadership Academy.  [The trainee caddies help with the school programs for younger kids.]  Among other byproducts, there are currently seven kids going to school in Boulder on an Evans Scholarship.


Golf needs more facilities like this.  My example is run by the state golf associations, who are less motivated by "economics" than most developers, but they wouldn't be doing it if they were bleeding money.  Whatever they spend maintaining the course, they treat as seed money for future customers.

[Josh Stevens]

I agree, but if its unprofitable then you need a sugar daddy.  Someone has to pay to build it and maintain it.  Good on your state golf associations, ours are not so enlightened

And so it falls to the old private clubs or at least it should - they are ones who often have a bit of spare land, often its in inner cities where its needs, they have the green staff already in place and so the marginal cost is not huge, they have the clubhouse and they generally have a few junior pros cluttering up the place with nothing much to do

But letting in the great unwashed is anathema.

I am quite pleased that my club makes the effort and opens its gates on a Sunday. The kids are all given shirts, and are taught and have to follow rules of dress and etiquette, they are given instruction, taught to score, taught to play fast.  Their parents on the other hand are allowed to wander about or enjoy the courtyard and are not required to adhere to dress rules as its not about them.  A little bit of flexibility is needed

[John Kavanaugh]

Josh,


Guess you've never been an assistant pro at a private club. They are the workhorse/friend/hero of every great club. And they don't even bring their dogs to work.

[Greg Chambers]

John,


You're hilarious...stepping in that pile of poop musta been demoralizing.....

[Josh Stevens]

Hm, well apart from issues arising from lack of talent - I confess it never seemed an attractive career option for me.

[Greg Chambers]

Joe & Mike,

 
I don’t want to start a debate, but your post illustrates precisely the attitudes that new golfers face when trying out the game.

 
Becoming familiar with golf behavior, etiquette and rules requires more that “watching a round on TV", or from Google.

 
The poor first experiences that I referenced were with people in their 30’s – their “helicopter parents” were not around to help them...  They gave the game a fair try, never felt welcomed, and only 1 out of 5 still plays occasionally.

 
In the DC area, my local public course is indeed $85 – on weekdays.  $105 on weekends.

 
I do believe that those who care about adding new golfers (course operators?) need to think creatively to make entry into the game easier.

 
Sorry if my post offended you.  It was just a suggestion.  I’ll refrain from further discussion.  I seldom post here.

Dave,


It would take a lot more than an intelligent post about your thoughts to offend me   We just disagree, that's all.


One point I'll make on your last post.  Golf or any other activity will NEVER be accommodating to everyone.  It's not FOR everyone.  Neither is soccer ... or baseball ... or whatever it is.  In fact, I'll go as far as to say the whole rhetoric of golf not being "inviting" couldn't be further from the truth.  Most people around the game are of pretty solid character and understanding that they were once new as well.  Does everyone act that way?  Of course not, but I'm not only not falling for that rhetoric, I'm calling complete bullshit on it.  If people don't feel welcome, well, maybe they did have a bad experience with the wrong person.  More likely than not though, I think it may be something along the lines of a pansy-ass millennial getting their feelings hurt that someone asked them to turn their hat around.

You must live in a bubble.

[Mike Sweeney]

We built a nine-hole kids course at CommonGround essentially for free as part of the re-do there.  We salvaged sand from the old course to build nine small greens.  It has been an enormous success, attracting all sorts of school programs, and being an integral part of their Caddie and Leadership Academy.  [The trainee caddies help with the school programs for younger kids.]  Among other byproducts, there are currently seven kids going to school in Boulder on an Evans Scholarship.


Golf needs more facilities like this.  My example is run by the state golf associations, who are less motivated by "economics" than most developers, but they wouldn't be doing it if they were bleeding money.  Whatever they spend maintaining the course, they treat as seed money for future customers.

Tom,


Fabulous post and effort. I am the first member from New York of Goat Hill Golf Club and Common Ground sounds like a similar vibe:


http://www.goathillpark.com/about-ghp/


See my email. This really should not get lost in the archives of GCA.

[Mike Wagner]

Joe & Mike,

 
I don’t want to start a debate, but your post illustrates precisely the attitudes that new golfers face when trying out the game.

 
Becoming familiar with golf behavior, etiquette and rules requires more that “watching a round on TV", or from Google.

 
The poor first experiences that I referenced were with people in their 30’s – their “helicopter parents” were not around to help them...  They gave the game a fair try, never felt welcomed, and only 1 out of 5 still plays occasionally.

 
In the DC area, my local public course is indeed $85 – on weekdays.  $105 on weekends.

 
I do believe that those who care about adding new golfers (course operators?) need to think creatively to make entry into the game easier.

 
Sorry if my post offended you.  It was just a suggestion.  I’ll refrain from further discussion.  I seldom post here.

Dave,


It would take a lot more than an intelligent post about your thoughts to offend me   We just disagree, that's all.


One point I'll make on your last post.  Golf or any other activity will NEVER be accommodating to everyone.  It's not FOR everyone.  Neither is soccer ... or baseball ... or whatever it is.  In fact, I'll go as far as to say the whole rhetoric of golf not being "inviting" couldn't be further from the truth.  Most people around the game are of pretty solid character and understanding that they were once new as well.  Does everyone act that way?  Of course not, but I'm not only not falling for that rhetoric, I'm calling complete bullshit on it.  If people don't feel welcome, well, maybe they did have a bad experience with the wrong person.  More likely than not though, I think it may be something along the lines of a pansy-ass millennial getting their feelings hurt that someone asked them to turn their hat around.

You must live in a bubble.

Greg - I don't understand why you mean.  Please cite a specific example of you or someone you know "not feeling welcomed" by the game of golf or those in charge of a facility you visited.

[Tim_Weiman]

But little courses for kids are completely uneconomic?

No public facility would build one as kids don't pay taxes or green fees, don't drink beer and don't vote.
Most private clubs don't have the space

There's a difference between "unprofitable" and "uneconomic."


We built a nine-hole kids course at CommonGround essentially for free as part of the re-do there.  We salvaged sand from the old course to build nine small greens.  It has been an enormous success, attracting all sorts of school programs, and being an integral part of their Caddie and Leadership Academy.  [The trainee caddies help with the school programs for younger kids.]  Among other byproducts, there are currently seven kids going to school in Boulder on an Evans Scholarship.


Golf needs more facilities like this.  My example is run by the state golf associations, who are less motivated by "economics" than most developers, but they wouldn't be doing it if they were bleeding money.  Whatever they spend maintaining the course, they treat as seed money for future customers.

Tom,


Common Ground, IMO, is the best project any architect has done in recent years. You have described exactly why.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I agree with Joe as well.  My first set up of clubs were some cheapo Spaldings from K-mart or some other similar store.  We lived out in the country and had a lot of land so I could practice at home.  We also had a few munis or low end publics in the area where I learned to play.  I don't remember any hassles with a dress code at those courses and I just checked the prices today and the fees, in Canadian dollars, are about $30-50.  That's not so unreasonable, is it?


And nowadays you could probably by used clubs pretty cheaply on ebay.

[Mark Pavy]

Greg - I don't understand why you mean.  Please cite a specific example of you or someone you know "not feeling welcomed" by the game of golf or those in charge of a facility you visited.

There are several facilities in the world I will never visit out of principle.

Royal Troon, Muirfield and Augusta. I'm on the fence with St Andrews.

[Steve Lang]

  Barrier #2, Cost for many things and options


I'll just note that in the early 60's in grade school, we could play for 50 cents before 10 am during the week at the local muni... totally because of the pro wanting to get kids out... you had to play as 4-somes and met many other kids, many of us went to same high school and we still play a memorial tournament every summer there.  You could cut a couple of lawns and play and get a coney and soft ice cream at the turn several times a week.  Then we'd go play baseball for free behind the school yard or at Goddard Field in the afternoons   

[Sam Kestin]

I agree with the folks on here who believe that a focus on juniors will grow the game for years to come. I learned to play when I was 11--which is to say when I wasn't old enough to understand how hard the game was. Every friend in my adult life that I've tried to recruit into the game has turned away because it's too frustrating to learn when you're an adult.


Moreover, when you're an adult, you don't have the endless hours to spend around a golf course like you do when you're a kid. Aptitude at anything comes with time--time that is a lot harder to come by the later in your life you get. It takes a lot of time to navigate the gulf between "I want to play golf" and "I'm ready to play golf regularly with people who have been playing their whole lives."

This is not to say that the game is unlearnable at a later age--I just think we need to fill that gulf as much as possible. More nine hole courses, more par-3 courses, more driving range experiences like TopGolf, more fun simulator experiences and other more low-pressure ways to gain experience swinging the club should help bridge that gulf.

It wouldn't hurt for some of these nine-hole and par-3 courses to be upscale in nature--part of the attraction to golf is the beauty of the venue. Building 9 circles (I won't call them greens) and 9 (artificial) tee boxes at 95 yards and calling it a golf course isn't really going to knock the socks off a newcomer. I would say that 90% of the par-3 courses that I've played wouldn't come close to being an inspiring experience for someone new.

I also don't really think that circus things like FootGolf and FlingGolf and AeroGolf and the other 800 non-golf ways to go wander around a course are the answer. Golf could charge runners for running cross-country out on the course--but I don't really think that is going to create more golfers.

[Steve Lang]

   Sam,


My first exposure to The Scarlet Course at OSU was following our cross country team there in the state finals...

[JLahrman]

Barrier #2, Cost for many things and options

I'll just note that in the early 60's in grade school, we could play for 50 cents before 10 am during the week at the local muni... totally because of the pro wanting to get kids out...

When I was a kid playing golf, late 80s mainly, kids under 18 could play any course in the Hamilton County (OH) park system's courses for $2.25. It was a sad sad day when I turned 18!

[Sam Kestin]

@Steve--I stand corrected!

[Mike Wagner]

Greg - I don't understand why you mean.  Please cite a specific example of you or someone you know "not feeling welcomed" by the game of golf or those in charge of a facility you visited.

There are several facilities in the world I will never visit out of principle.

Royal Troon, Muirfield and Augusta. I'm on the fence with St Andrews.

Mark - I asked Greg for an example about "not feeling welcomed."  Your response is you won't visit a few private (well, mostly private) facilities out of principle.  I'm not connecting ...

[Mark Pavy]

Mark - I asked Greg for an example about "not feeling welcomed."  Your response is you won't visit a few private (well, mostly private) facilities out of principle.  I'm not connecting ...

Mike,

I had a bad experience at Royal Troon.
There's elements of golf history that have affected the direction of a simple ball and stick game that I'm not comfortable with. The formative years of golf and the governing bodies is a fascinating read. The experience that newcomers face to the game is built on structure and ideals from the 1800s.

[Pat Burke]

Would we have enough golfers if every "regular" golf introduced 1 player to the game?


You know, get a bag of cast offs out of the garage, throw some old balls in there, and bring them to the course to
1) check in 2) hit some balls/learn a few fundamentals 3) maybe play a few holes to get an idea of etiquette and rules
4) show them how to drink after.


Seems a lot of people are looking for organizations or someone else to grow the game.  Kind of like waiting for our govt to
fix all the ills

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks to Joe S and Dave M for debunking the nonsense premise of this thread.

[Tim Gavrich]

I've been to a lot of golf course websites and have found just one (1!) that offers a "Millennial discount": The Ridge at Castle Pines North. If you show ID saying you were born between 1980 and 1996, your rate is $85 instead of $115.


I hope there are a few other courses that do this, but it should be standard practice at public and resort facilities. Not giving a break to potential willing customers just getting started in life/careers is incredibly stupid, especially if facilities are not doing it for fear of complaints by their older "core" customers, who will have many fewer years to enjoy the course than Millennials.

[Joe Sponcia]

This Saturday via Golfnow.crap in the Washington DC area: 





Scroll down further:







It's cheaper through the week naturally.


Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. - said some slimy politician

[Mike Wagner]

Greg - I don't understand why you mean.  Please cite a specific example of you or someone you know "not feeling welcomed" by the game of golf or those in charge of a facility you visited.

There are several facilities in the world I will never visit out of principle.

Royal Troon, Muirfield and Augusta. I'm on the fence with St Andrews.

I'm sure it's an interesting story if you'd like to share.