Can we sell less green to our customers

[archie_struthers]

Ok our irrigation system is just about down and out , with a shelf life of perhaps twenty years , we are well past it now . Last year we invested in a new pump house and this year the board that links the electronics . Now we have the PVC and joints giving us fits . So , here comes the new irrigation system . In talking to my partner, we have to consider whether the investment  in a system that provides wall to wall green is worthwhile.  At first glance we love the idea of Newport or Fishers Island and their lack of water use . However , might be a hard sell to our  members , who while educated golfers and really exceptional supporters of the club , might think frugality influenced our decision , not their enjoyment


In that we never have had an assessment , and don't intend to , it's a tough call.  As one of the most successful clubs at the Jersey Shore , thanks to location and a nice WilliePark Jr   golf course, scary to roll the dice .   What say you ?

[Randy Thompson]

 Just a couple of basic comments I am sure more people will go into more detail. Twenty year shelf life sounds like something we might encounter in a manufacturers web page. Do  you have records from the past couple of years documenting each break, time spent in material and labor making the repairs. If you have that information you can have a good idea of what it will cost to continue making these repairs for years to come and more importantly have a better idea on how much time it will take to recupérate the investment by lowering your future repair cost. Obviously the longer you wait technology should continue to improve which needs to be weighed.
 Wall to wall Green is becoming less important to educated members and reducing overall áreas with optimum uniform coverage can easily be sold as, doing our part in a growing global movement in enviromental sustainability. There are a lot of high profile courses like Pinehurst that have created non irrgated waste áreas and drastically reduced wáter consumption and system installation cost. An irrigation consultant may also reudce cost by using a simpler low cost sprinkler in out of play áreas. If your going to try reduce total acreage, get an architect involved and possibly a landscape consultant. If your going to try to sell something new it will be easier to sell based on the final results a group of professionals should provide. Your option of just eliminating irrigation in out of play áreas would be a risk as you seem to already have fiqured out that might send the wrong message.

[Peter Pallotta]

Archie - maybe a stupid question, but why not let frugality drive the decision, and then sell it to the members exactly that way? With examples like Newport and Fishers (maybe they never had assessments either) you could also honestly claim that frugality is not the enemy of their enjoyment but its friend. Finish it up by noting how all the best and smartest clubs are  doing it this way now...

[archie_struthers]

 


This  is such a great discussion topic  and its real.  Had a nice chat with a good friend who shall go nameless for now and he loved the scorched earth policy . We were on the same page as Peter  as Pinehurst came up almost immediately in our discussions . He had been to see all the new C & C  changes there, I just had pictures . He's fairly tuned in to all that goes on in the golf world and said the guys at Pinehurst , as expected, have mixed reviews as to the customer response. They love the work , some people don't .  However it is a shrine of golf so most players would be reluctant to say the emperor has no clothes. 

  Greate Bay is not a seaside links though surrounded by water on three sides, we are more parkland . so it complicates the issue . We have many mature oak tees scattered  throughout the property and they provide us with some privacy from our neighbors who live around the courses. [size=78%]. We already removed a bunch of trees that had encroached on play areas despite a bit of protest from some of our oldest members.  One ]advantages in being there since 1998 is that Im not a newbie , so we get some good support from the majority of our customers. Still wish I was 40 , lol !



More to,come as we  work on this issue. Really appreciate the responses. [/size]

[SB]

As one of the most successful clubs at the Jersey Shore

I think you've already answered your question.  No changes seem necessary until the annual repair costs can be recouped by a new system.  And that's a LOT of irrigation repair.  And don't forget you'll probably lose some business while you put in the new system.  That is, unless you're losing members or not getting new members because of conditioning.

[Don Mahaffey]

Archie, did the pipe failures increase dramatically after the new pump station went on line?

[BCowan]

Archie,

     Your using pinehurst as an example which is cart path only year round, are u cart path year round?   Also fishers and Newport I would bet do half as many rounds as your course.  Many of these factors ur over looking. Also are u taking into acct weather w location?

New system, cost of doing business.  Course>clubhouse money

[archie_struthers]

 


Ben , appreciate the input . Trust me I'm not overlooking these things , just really drilling down as to the very best way to go forward . Being half Irish / half Scottish is a curse, as your thrifty side argues incessantly with the other .


Good points as we do lots of rounds , almost 30.000 and have lots of cart traffic .   We do not want cart paths only for sure !

[Jason Topp]

Archie:

As a kid, almost none of the courses I played were irrigated but the grass in the fairways looked closer to the grass in my front lawn than the grass you see at a private club.  We loved it on the rare occasions that the course got completely baked out but that was usually a limited portion of the year. 

I assume that selling brown is possible but selling weeds definitely will not be a workable approach.  Is it possible to keep the grass you have alive without irrigation?   

[archie_struthers]

 


Jason , not having an irrigation system is not an option for us . We just need to consider whether spending well over. a million dollars is the best log term solution for us .  We could go for less coverage while still maintaining the play areas , probably saving $500k.    Pretty sure our members would appreciate  whatever we do if its a good golf decision . Would like to do some other cap ex stuff that benefits our wedding / banquet business and maintain reasonable dues .  It's a tough call but a good exercise in golf management and utility of resources .


Thanks for all the suggestions and good  stuff .

[Keith Grande]

It seems that courses with heather/fescue get away with the "browning out" aesthetic from the average golfer because it looks nice and frames the hole on the edges.  I'm not sure if this type of rough could be feasible for all areas, and how much water would be needed to maintain the look, but it could be an option for some, while saving on irrigation outlays.

[Dave McCollum]

Several years ago, we got a new superintendant who had never worked on a sand based course.  It was quite a learning curve adjusting to both the fast draining soil and our old irrigation system.  As a result, we had a lot brown spots and other irrigation-related conditioning problems.  The greens and the playing surfaces were fine; the brown just looked bad to some golfers.  We not only lost members, we lost some of our best and most avid golfers.  They took their buddies with them.  I’m a fan of fast and firm golf, but many golfers in our market are not.  The irony is that I thought our playing surfaces, despite the problems, were vastly superior to the club most moved to.  I concede the other club was lush, green, soft, and covered in thick, long rough (I called it a grass factory).  The same golfers look at courses on TV like Pinehurst and Chambers and call them ugly.  Re-educating them is not possible.  They think, if a course is not green, it’s not being maintained properly.  Probably best to sell them on the cost and sustainability points. 

We are in a very competitive golf market.  We are a public course, We have carts. Our maintenance meld is determined by the need to appeal the most golfers we can given the season and weather.  The greener we keep it the more compliments we get about the conditioning.  Way it is.

[archie_struthers]

 




Dave , we've got lots of good, sophisticated golfers at our reasonably priced (under $5000)private club . This being said , we have the same worries you do as to how much brown would be acceptable .  I'm a fan of Pittsburgh Medium  rare conditions with a perfect core and burned edges but what's good in steak doesn't always fly in golf .  Understand your pain !

[Dave McCollum]

In contrast, I wouldn't call many of our golfers sophisticated.  Certainly not well traveled and very few have played different styles of golf.  I was talking to a guy once and asked him if he had ever played a links course.  He said yes and started talking about a course in Phoenix.   

We can have mild winters when the irrigation is shut off.  In the high desert we can get really fast and firm with lots of wind.  My favorite time to play.   

[Carl Rogers]

Mr. Struthers,
For those of us who know little or nothing about your circumstances, please explain.  Such as what part of the country, the type of grasses, length of course, etc?

Are you able to shut down a couple of months per year?

[BCowan]

Archie,

     A very good friend of mine who is a great keeper in Michigan had his bent fairways getting 60-70 yards of roll.  His coverage is tight and with the new grasses he uses 40% less water.  I'd look into flagstick bent which should be available shortly.  Been tested for 10 years at midwest club and is most dollar spot resistant.

You can have green and firm conditions but ur keeper needs the right tools, especially since ur doing 30,000 rounds with carts.  The GOLF COURSE is ur asset, don't go cheap on irrigation for chouse.  I'm curious to see if fused pipe lasts longer.  With the newer heads u can limit or cut off the rough watering.  With more heads ull be able to use less water and obtain firmer conditions if desired.  The burned edges is so gca hipster. 

[archie_struthers]

Is a GCA hipster a bad thing ?


Lol




I've been dissed

[BCowan]

Is a GCA hipster a bad thing ?

Yes

[Tim Gavrich]

Archie--


Would the Year 1 results of taking the two choices apparently confronting you look significantly different to your members? If not, and there's a way to take the more cost-effective option and kind of gradually shift away from the current scheme toward a firmer and faster one over the course of a couple years, my guess is that that would be preferable. I'm not an expert, but my sense is that private club members can stomach very gradual change better than they can significant change. If they can be weaned off of a perhaps greener-than-necessary look, I bet many would come to adopt it without even knowing much has changed.

[Don Mahaffey]

What Tim said

[Jaeger Kovich]

Is a GCA hipster a bad thing ?

Yes

I respectfully disagree  

[BCowan]

Is a GCA hipster a bad thing ?

Yes

I respectfully disagree

Not surprised.  Please provide a course that does 30K rounds without cart path only and walking only.  Also that is private w $5,000 a year dues...

[archie_struthers]

 




Tim G , sorry missed your query/advice. We could  do it incrementally .  Surely you are right about a gradual change is easier to work out with your members. Many clubs do implement irrigation replacement over time as finances allow . You get stuck with a mobilization bill if you can't do it in house , which we should be able to avoid.


Something people don't  always put in the equation is that an irrigation system , no matter how fancy or well designed doesn't guarantee perfect conditions on your golf course. A superintendent pushing for state of the art puts another layer of pressure on a tough job.  Spend over a million and get ok results , oops !   My whole thought process was could we allocate money / infrastructure or personnel in other areas at the club that would make it a better experience for our customers.  Even if our conditions are as good as , say Philly Cricket or Pine Valley ,  it doesn't change our demographic dramatically .  We already have good conditions , great really doesn't impact the bottom line . 


Oh well, I'm still working on what's right but certainly appreciate all the good info !