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Ben Stephens

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Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #100 on: September 05, 2016, 11:58:55 AM »
Bigger version - hope this will be easier to see

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #101 on: September 08, 2016, 08:06:14 AM »
1. Not long enough
2. Not tough enough
3. The 16th green


North Berwick is great for what it is.

An odd thing to say about the 16th green considering it is the original Biarritz.
It's just too goofy, those things become a minus in the real world. You can't play a proper golf shot to those pair of table tops, so whilst it's fun to the GCA crowd and may well be the original Biarritz, it's not great golf which was the original question.


Adrian,


whilst it is quite extreme and very exacting I certainly do not agree with you 'can't play a proper shot' assessment. The approach offers several options all of which are realistic. Good even in the real world,


Jon

Tim Gallant

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Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #102 on: September 08, 2016, 12:52:25 PM »
North Berwick was awarded the 2019 Senior Amateur. I hope this doesn't lead to a 'toughening-up' programme alla higher rough, narrower fairways and more tee boxes...  :-[


http://www.randa.org/News/2016/09/SelectionoftheworldsfinestcoursestohostRandAeventsin2019

Eric Smith

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Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #103 on: September 08, 2016, 01:28:57 PM »
North Berwick was awarded the 2019 Senior Amateur.


Ah ho. I turn 50 in 2019. You've seen my game, Tim. Should I give it a go? As our pal Graham says, "It's wide open over there."

Gib_Papazian

Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #104 on: September 08, 2016, 03:33:40 PM »
J,

#16 green at North Berwick is not the original Biarritz. The two holes have no connection whatsoever - the C.B. Mac version is a representation of a cliff-to-cliff par-3 that was in Biarritz France. I have a painting of the original somewhere . . . . . in my memory banks. it might have been called the "Chasm Hole," but I'm a bit fuzzy on the specifics.

I think the first one in America was #9 at Piping Rock because C.B. could not find an appropriate spot at NGLA for it. The Alps and Redan were just sitting there in Southampton waiting to be found, but I know Biarritz was also one of his original design conceptions. Damn if I can remember if C.B. found it - or whether Dev Emmet brought it to his attention.

Let us not forget that #16 at Cypress was "found" by Marion Hollins and Raynor - which, along with #9 at Yale, #5 at Fishers and #11 at Creek Club - are probably the most accurate articulations of the French original.

Rookies often point to #16 at NB as a Biarritz because the putting surface has that deep swale, but the orientation of the green to the line of play is completely different. Further, the swale (such as you find at Piping Rock) was simply meant to represent the shot value of a chasm. The original C.B. designs DID NOT have the front portion of the green formalized into putting surface - this was added on later. The first ones were simply closely mowed grass. That stated, Uncle George and I always agreed that C.B. would approve.

I absolutely love the Doak/Urbina rendition at Old Mac because the swale is not uniformly straight across the putting surface, but irregular, which introduces some tremendous interest, options and uncertainty as the ball tumbles into the swale and ricochets out. Again, I am sure C.B. and Raynor would agree this evolution is a real improvement - although I would throw myself in front of the dozer if some idiot decided to reroute the swale at Yale for instance.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 05:19:39 PM by Gib Papazian »

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #105 on: September 08, 2016, 05:12:42 PM »
Gib,


I think you mean John not Jon :)

Gib_Papazian

Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #106 on: September 08, 2016, 05:18:55 PM »
Slip of the finger Laddie.

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #107 on: September 08, 2016, 05:45:43 PM »
J,

#16 green at North Berwick is not the original Biarritz. The two holes have no connection whatsoever - the C.B. Mac version is a representation of a cliff-to-cliff par-3 that was in Biarritz France. I have a painting of the original somewhere . . . . . in my memory banks. it might have been called the "Chasm Hole," but I'm a bit fuzzy on the specifics.

I think the first one in America was #9 at Piping Rock because C.B. could not find an appropriate spot at NGLA for it. The Alps and Redan were just sitting there in Southampton waiting to be found, but I know Biarritz was also one of his original design conceptions. Damn if I can remember if C.B. found it - or whether Dev Emmet brought it to his attention.

Let us not forget that #16 at Cypress was "found" by Marion Hollins and Raynor - which, along with #9 at Yale, #5 at Fishers and #11 at Creek Club - are probably the most accurate articulations of the French original.

Rookies often point to #16 at NB as a Biarritz because the putting surface has that deep swale, but the orientation of the green to the line of play is completely different. Further, the swale (such as you find at Piping Rock) was simply meant to represent the shot value of a chasm. The original C.B. designs DID NOT have the front portion of the green formalized into putting surface - this was added on later. The first ones were simply closely mowed grass. That stated, Uncle George and I always agreed that C.B. would approve.

I absolutely love the Doak/Urbina rendition at Old Mac because the swale is not uniformly straight across the putting surface, but irregular, which introduces some tremendous interest, options and uncertainty as the ball tumbles into the swale and ricochets out. Again, I am sure C.B. and Raynor would agree this evolution is a real improvement - although I would throw myself in front of the dozer if some idiot decided to reroute the swale at Yale for instance.


Gib,


Thank you for posting this. I hear many guests say that it is the original (and even some members), but I always had my doubts for the reasons you posted above. I will start spreading the word.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #108 on: September 08, 2016, 05:49:26 PM »
Tim,

Why not believe the guy who wrote the book on North Berwick?  I thought he made a more compelling argument than Gib.

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #109 on: September 08, 2016, 05:54:09 PM »
North Berwick was awarded the 2019 Senior Amateur.


Ah ho. I turn 50 in 2019. You've seen my game, Tim. Should I give it a go? As our pal Graham says, "It's wide open over there."


You qualify, i'll caddie!

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #110 on: September 08, 2016, 05:55:23 PM »
Tim,

Why not believe the guy who wrote the book on North Berwick?  I thought he made a more compelling argument than Gib.


With a name like Gib Papazian, who am I to argue?!!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #111 on: September 08, 2016, 06:16:16 PM »
The best of everything is in America and the best of America is at Bandon. It's so obvious to anyone but a rookie.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #112 on: September 08, 2016, 07:51:38 PM »
J,

#16 green at North Berwick is not the original Biarritz. The two holes have no connection whatsoever - the C.B. Mac version is a representation of a cliff-to-cliff par-3 that was in Biarritz France. I have a painting of the original somewhere . . . . . in my memory banks. it might have been called the "Chasm Hole," but I'm a bit fuzzy on the specifics.


................................





You might want to read this thread:


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,21926.0.html


which digs into the origin of CBM's Biarritz hole.  The conclusion was that he was not inspired by the Chasm hole, but by features of the 12th hole, another hole on the Biarritz course of the time.




Sven Nilsen

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Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #113 on: September 08, 2016, 10:53:22 PM »
Why don't we take the word of the guy who actually came up with the template?

From CBM's article on an ideal course take from the Jan. 1907 edition of Golfers Magazine.


"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #114 on: September 09, 2016, 03:07:20 AM »
J,

#16 green at North Berwick is not the original Biarritz. The two holes have no connection whatsoever - the C.B. Mac version is a representation of a cliff-to-cliff par-3 that was in Biarritz France. I have a painting of the original somewhere . . . . . in my memory banks. it might have been called the "Chasm Hole," but I'm a bit fuzzy on the specifics.


................................





You might want to read this thread:


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,21926.0.html


which digs into the origin of CBM's Biarritz hole.  The conclusion was that he was not inspired by the Chasm hole, but by features of the 12th hole, another hole on the Biarritz course of the time.


Thanks for sharing Bryan - had a read of the first page of that thread, and can't wait to dive into it more later today.

Gib_Papazian

Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #115 on: September 09, 2016, 01:12:05 PM »
Sven,

Thank you for posting that - my knowledge is clearly dated as Uncle George and I finished the book in 2002. I would like to see a photo (if there is one)  of the 12th at Biarritz. It just goes to prove that historical research in ongoing - and has no destination or finish line.

Barny,

I am not sure what you're trying to say, but #16 at NB is completely unrelated to the subject. Further, some years ago, I was upstairs having lunch with the Club Secretary and Redhead - a conversation in which I lamented the intrusion of turf into the Redan Bunker.

This gentleman (whose name escapes me) was fairly new, having come from a club in Surrey. Earlier in the day, I had asked the Head Professional - who had been there for decades - whether anyone had thought about restoring the Redan Bunker to its former glory. Being a harrumphing Scot, he snapped that the bunker was exactly as it had always been - and that I was clearly mistaken.     
Sooooo, I came home and sent both of them a picture of the original bunker out of George's archives. I received a thank you note from the Club Secretary and stony silence from the Pro.

So Barny, just because some guy writes a book on North Berwick does mean every fact is infallible. Clearly, we were wrong about the Chasm Hole in the Evangelist.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #116 on: September 09, 2016, 04:24:38 PM »
Gib:


There is still a bit of uncertainty as to exactly what hole (in the Chambre D'Amour) was the 12th when CBM saw it.  But there are photos of a few candidates in the later pages of the thread Bryan linked to above.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross