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George Pazin

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Re: Did Trent Jones know something Mr. Colt didn't?
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2016, 02:21:38 PM »
George and Jeff...What?


Isn't it the design that put the water right next to the green?


I suppose some might call that design.


I've always been a big Pete Dye fan... in theory, based on what I've read. Draw off the tee, fade into the green, reverence for the classics like Camargo, the redan par 3, etc., etc. My playing experiences haven't matched up with that, but maybe I'm just that weird.


What I meant was, if you took any course, and drop in a boatload of water, especially near the greens, it would probably strike similar fear into the hearts of the best golfers. After all, what you are doing is essentially magnifying the results of a shot, good or bad, excellent or poor, focused or indifferent. Is this design? Doesn't feel like it to me, it feels like one is completely artificially capitalizing on the rules of golf.


Does Pete Dye deserve credit for taking advantage of this? Damned if I know. All I know if I prefer golfers earn their high scores, ala Oakmont, a course that does not rely on water to strike fear into the hearts of mortal golfers. I also prefer the 14th and 17th at Augusta to many of the more famous holes, like 12, 13, 15 and 16.


Am I biased? Damn straight I am. And proud of it.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Joe Hancock

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Re: Did Trent Jones know something Mr. Colt didn't?
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2016, 04:37:21 PM »
George,

I know you'll be all humble and deny intention, but the fact that you posted such a passionate and coherent disdain for artificial bodies of water AND working the word damn into the text(twice!) is brilliant.

Just wanted you to know it didn't go unnoticed.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Did Trent Jones know something Mr. Colt didn't?
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2016, 07:55:12 AM »
 

......... I am wondering whether there is in fact MORE to designing for the 1% than simply adding hazards and length and rough. Maybe there isn't, and maybe even if there IS a Tom D or a Jeff B know it as well as an RTJ II or a JN. I'm just wondering.

.......If a golf course was designed/re-designed almost exclusively for the 1%, how does that time and talent get "re-focused" when dealing with not a range of average golfers but with a single and very definite sub-set of golfers who can, to a person, approach a green, any green, from just about ANY angle with almost no difference/disadvantage felt, and who can spend a week getting to know any sets of greens no matter how smartly done and then spend the next four days being incredibly precise at hitting targets on those greens, and for whom currently NO hole not matter how long seems to be TOO long?


Peter,

Was away and sorry not to answer your question as some of it was seemingly directed to me. In short, I see nothing, I hear nothing, I know nothing.......not really a big part of my thought process in every day design.

First, I have never been asked to design solely for that 1%, so I doubt I know much.  What I think is that Dye added water mostly to create 1.5-2 stroke penalties to offset all the other good play.  In other words, you can't stop the birdies, so really penalize the few bad holes to bring the score up.

Second, even for the best players, I would focus on presenting a wide variety of ideal shots. If one hole favors a high fade and another a low draw, the match/tournament probably comes down to who hits their least favorite/strong shots the best, which seems to be a nice, balanced test of golf that would determine the most complete player most of the time, which sounds good to me.  We only have to separate the winner by one stroke, not ten, and over 4 days in stroke play.  In fact, it's better if the margin is only a stroke, for excitement.  I guess I wouldn't care if that one stroke was the difference between -15 and -16, or +1 and even par.

Third, once you take out the design criteria of really high scores for good players, then there are a range of designs that still challenge them while not being overly harsh on average players, and we tend to choose them.  The prime example is the cross/front hazard, which rarely troubles the good player, but kills average ones.....so why use it very often?

Lastly, the game is still be between people, whether -15 and -16, or +1 and even par.  And, it is still 90% mental.  In other words, the competition can screw up their heads even if the architecture doesn't.  If it's the PHX Open and they know they have to make a dozen birdies a day, that puts as much pressure on as a course where they can only make a few bogeys a day and hope to win, no?

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Anthony Gholz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Trent Jones know something Mr. Colt didn't?
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2016, 11:53:36 AM »
To All:


I caught the TJ in the heading and thought of Oakland Hills and Ross and the on-going discussion between wasp waist bunkering, changed over time to fit whatever the current PGA standards are, and Rosses staggered echelon bunkering (or TOC) where one set of bunkers causes problems for one generation and another for the next.  For the 1%, taking the tees further back has been done by all gca's back to TOC.  Colt & Alison, Ross, and others have discussed this and planned for it.


We need to revive a previous OHs thread: but for the record the OHs members have the new Gil Hanse design.  It restores at least a dozen of Rosses cross bunkers, and I do mean the word restore vs "similar."  Several of them are direct from the Golf illustrated bunkering from the 1920s (don't have the date off the top of my head).


I hope someone in a position to release it puts it up for all to see. If they don't include Rosses original I'll find it (or Joe or Sven or Brad will).


We still haven't seen on this site Rosses 1947-48 bunkering scheme just before he died.
Tony

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Trent Jones know something Mr. Colt didn't?
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2016, 12:09:25 PM »
For those of us that are far less experienced in this area, I'd love to hear some specific areas where Dye makes the professional think (outside of thinking, I need to hit this straight) on a couple of his most well known specifically designed tournament courses, Sawgrass and PGA West. 

I assume it has to do with forcing them to yardages, or something of that nature.  Not being *that* caliber, it really stuck out the number of times you are asked to hit a pass/fail shot at PGA West, 6, 10, 13, 17, 18, and I'm sure the evolution of the golf ball and equipment has neutered a lot of the examples.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Did Trent Jones know something Mr. Colt didn't?
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2016, 02:50:00 PM »
For those of us that are far less experienced in this area, I'd love to hear some specific areas where Dye makes the professional think (outside of thinking, I need to hit this straight) on a couple of his most well known specifically designed tournament courses, Sawgrass and PGA West. 



I used an example a couple of weeks ago in the thread about the 16th at Augusta National, and how the 13th at the TPC at Sawgrass is designed similarly.  There are hole locations short left, right on the brink of the bulkhead, and the slope up to the rest of the green is so tight that not many pros will aim straight at the pin, because with any pull they're hitting three from the tee.  So, in essence they are trying to hit the slope up to the rest of the green and use it to contain their shots without risking the water.  The 4th hole is another example of the same thing.

Dave McCollum

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Re: Did Trent Jones know something Mr. Colt didn't?
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2016, 03:17:05 PM »
The Florida swing on the PGA Tour.

I used to scoff at the TV and rant “who wants to play those water logged swamps?”
Now I think they are perfect for the tour guys and, perhaps, for golfers that want to beat themselves up seeing how they compare to the pros.  A few comments here from time to time about “the right tees” seem to indicate they have members and regular play.  Hard to imagine.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Trent Jones know something Mr. Colt didn't?
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2016, 04:37:44 PM »
George,

I know you'll be all humble and deny intention, but the fact that you posted such a passionate and coherent disdain for artificial bodies of water AND working the word damn into the text(twice!) is brilliant.

Just wanted you to know it didn't go unnoticed.


Thanks, wish it were intentional.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Trent Jones know something Mr. Colt didn't?
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2016, 12:34:49 PM »
We all know inserting water hazards,pushing a tee box back, pinching a fairway with bunkers on both sides, and growing knee high rough,.....
make courses harder.(and evidently make one an "Open Doctor)


The questions are :
                              1. does that make for better golf(for anyone)?
                              2. does that identify the best of the 1%?
                              3.Prove you know something no one else knows?


Actually, Mr. Colt and his colleagues have answered #3. They maintained that anyone can make a course hard, but you have to be on top of your game to make it great. I guess that at least partially answers #1 too.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Trent Jones know something Mr. Colt didn't?
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2016, 12:41:23 PM »

About Sawgrass

...  While the course may not be to one's liking, the design may actually be brilliant.




Actually isn't part of Pete's brilliance the ability to make the pros sweat from the back tees, while the average guy has a more manageable course to play. Certainly I have read that he said exactly that about French Link. A buddy went to Sawgrass and played some appropriate tees and easily played to his handicap. Although, I have to wonder if I could do that. I probably would have to leave my wayward driver at home.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Trent Jones know something Mr. Colt didn't?
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2016, 04:41:19 PM »
For those of us that are far less experienced in this area, I'd love to hear some specific areas where Dye makes the professional think (outside of thinking, I need to hit this straight) on a couple of his most well known specifically designed tournament courses, Sawgrass and PGA West. 



I used an example a couple of weeks ago in the thread about the 16th at Augusta National, and how the 13th at the TPC at Sawgrass is designed similarly.  There are hole locations short left, right on the brink of the bulkhead, and the slope up to the rest of the green is so tight that not many pros will aim straight at the pin, because with any pull they're hitting three from the tee.  So, in essence they are trying to hit the slope up to the rest of the green and use it to contain their shots without risking the water.  The 4th hole is another example of the same thing.

Tom,
When I played my first Players Champ, I called home after my first practice round.  I told my wife it was a course I could win on.  I'm not sure I ever said that before or after.
I was very comfortable moving the ball both directions, and I was very happy to see that what many considered the most difficult hole locations, there were slopes and angles that a properly shaped shot could use to bring the ball towards the hole.
Sawgrass, IMO, was very much a course that placed a premium on hitting your target on every shot.  If you could shape a shot with the hole, you were going to get rewarded.  The penalty for missing those shots was extreme, but considering the course was built for the tournament, I always felt it was appropriate