The Dell didn't ring my bell ...

[Bob_Huntley]

Paul,

It is sad to see the rant about Enoch Powell, quite possibly the brightest intellect in Parliament these last fifty years. A professor of Classics and a quite brilliant Greek scholar. When I travel to some of the more crime ridden parts of London, Brixton for example, I think the chap was prescient.

To say that Britain was a nation of immigrants, is, to me, misleading. I think that up until 1939 the country was as homogenous as say, Sweden and Norway.

[ForkaB]

Bob

For once, I think you are mistaken.  Notwithstanding the fact that in 1066 the Normans played havoc with the local gene pool, in the good old days of the slave trade (1600-1800) there were more than a hundred thousand situationally reluctant Africans in England who eventually got assimilated into the population.  And let us not forget the less reluctant invaders from Scandinavia, Scotland and America (1941-1945) etc. who also sowed their seed.  The genetic homogeneity of England is a myth, IMHO.

I agree with you that Enoch Powell was one of the most educated and intelligent people on the British political scene, but he was also as batty as a loon, particularly in his later years.  It is unfortunate that he will probably be remembered mostly for his "Rivers of Blood" speech which, while inflammatory and catchy, has proved to be a damp squib, at least so far, fortunately..........

[Paul_Turner]

Rich is right:  Celts, Mercians, Saxons, Normans, Angles, Danes, Vikings...  People like Powell and Thatcher seemed to have no clue about this and English history.  Their version of English history, was all the cliche "English Rose" version and wasn't grounded in reality.  Powell had no grasp of the fact that the younger generation was capable of accepting more than one history (i.e. including immigrant history).

I was born in Brixton, nothing wrong with as far as I tell.

[Bob_Huntley]

Rich,

I did say 1939, which would exclude the detritus from WW11.

As far as the one hundred thousand Africans rescued(?) from the slave trade, I'd like to see evidence of that statistic. I was thinking of immigrant intake and admittedly the rampaging Danes and their like came over a thousand years ago, but England's brush with foreigners was the Spaniard selling onions from their bicycles and Dutch fisherman plying their wares in Hull,  Whitby and Scarborough.

I know one thing for a fact..... you could not vote in Spanish, French, Swahili or any of those other strange tongues, hence my feel for homogenity.

One last bit on Enoch Powell, ever considered the racist, he was the only person in Parliament who vociferously objected to the maltreatment of Mau Mau members by British security forces in Kenya, this, some decade before his  other more inflammatory speech.

Re the slave trade, one of my paternal ancestors, Henry V. Huntley captained a ship in the Anti-Slavery campaign started by Wilberforce. I had no idea that so many slaves were brought to England, I thought most went to the West Indies.

[Paul_Turner]

The English language is built up from many sources: German, Danish, Swedish...

French was the ruling class language for many centuries (Norman Kings) in England (Longshanks in Braveheart should have been speaking it, but Gibson wasn't interested in accuracy).  English was kept as the language of the people and eventually won out.

[ForkaB]

Bob

I've read that 100,000+ slaves in England anecdote several times over the past 10 years in the local raggies (e.g. The Times).  I didn't say they were "rescued."  As far as I know most of them were slaves, just as in the Colonies.  After all, Britain didn't outlaw slavery until the 19th century.  It surprised me too when I read it first, and I'll try to find some sort of reference for you.

In any case, we all came "out of Africa--as current science tells us--didn't we?  Some just more recently than others.

Paul

I remember a scene in "Braveheart" where Mel G. surprised one of the English court by his mastery of French.  For all it's minor innacuracies, I think that the film is not as far from the "truth" as some Sassenachs might wish to think it is!

[Matt_Ward]

I have to add this -- what I score -- high or low -- isn't the issue. I just stated the facts of what I did on a given hole.

I think the 6th and 7th at Lahinch are world class holes! In fact, I was told the existing 7th green position was moved a very short time ago and I can candidly say it's a supreme driving hole -- especially when played from the tip tees behind the 6th green.

I don't doubt luck plays a role in golf. The issue becomes how much of a role and I don't see the Dell being more than just the kind of goofy / quirky hole that turns some people on but will turn no less amount off.

When you compare the Dell to the next par-3 -- the 8th -- there is no contest in my mind which is the better designed hole. I'll take the 8th everytime.

[Paul_Turner]

Rich

Well, you Scots always did like a pat on the back.

[THuckaby2]

Matt:

That works for me.  Heck, to each his own.  I find #6 to be unique in the world of golf, and #8 to be a great golf hole.  So which is better designed?  I don't know.  I just did enjoy every playing I've had of both golf holes.  I just also know this:  if and when I go back, I'll be looking forward like crazy to another crack at The Dell, just for the whimsical fun of it.  #8 will simply be the great hole two holes later.

TH

[ForkaB]

Paul

I'm as English as Joe Strimmer, or Flymo, or whatever his name was.  Just like Scotland....

[Paul_Turner]

Rich

Yeah, we need more Strummers and fewer Powells.

For you Celts out there:  The Anglo-Saxons created England, but it was the Normans and their kings who tried to create Great Britain by dominating/subduing the whole of the Isles.  Obviously a far less successful endeavour that had practically fallen apart by the late C20th.  So you can blame the Normans i.e. French/Vikings and get off "our" case  All pretty ironic too, given that William the Conquerer's "Norman" army was made up of one third Celts!

[Jack_Marr]

...and I believe Celts from Ireland invaded the Picts of "Scotland." A tribe called the Scotti, or something like that.

Powel's speech was made on the anniversary of Hitler's birth.  The result was violence on the streets.  Also, POwell encouraged those worried about the "race" issue to join a group called teh Powellites, which was made up of racists, fascists, and Ulster loyalists.

He certainly did not help the Northern Ireland problem. He did not seem to recognise that the population he represented there were planted in the first place, flying in the face of his rivers of blood speech.

[Matt_Ward]

I'd be interested in hearing from those who have played Lahinch -- prior to the new changes and afterwards. Do you view the existing layout as being improved or not so?

[Matt_Ward]

I just have to say that although the Dell hole isn't my cup of tea and I really don't like the par-5 that precedes it -- I thoroughly enjoyed Lahinch and would play there again at the drop of a hat. An immensely fun course and one that never could bore golfers of all handicap ranges.