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Richard Hetzel

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I made a quick run down to Virginia this past weekend for some early spring golf. The weather was terrible, and this course surely was not in top form. Virginia National appears to be located in a flood plain on the Shenandoah River. At first glance I wasn't sure if this course was even worth playing. I found it unique and quite fun, as well as challenging. The front 9 goes out and back along the river. The back 9 hugs a rocky/wooded hillside, traverses upwards for a higher elevation, tough par 4 hole and then goes straight downhill with a short par 3. Maybe the best hole on the course is the elevated tee, dog leg left par 5 after the downhill par 3. Great hole, you'll need a big draw here. The last few holes run right along the river. Hole #18 was a very tough finishing hole.

I would love to see this course in the summer or fall. Do the conditions at Virginia National get any better? Obviously I was not expecting anything in regard to conditioning at this time of the year. Is it wet most of the time (a lot of wetlands areas on the course as well)....

This course was much better than Blue Ridge Shadows (pics on that to follow).

Here are the pics....
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Richard Hetzel

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2009, 09:54:00 PM »
More pics....
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Richard Hetzel

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2009, 09:54:55 PM »
Last set of pics...
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2009, 10:06:02 PM »
Cant say I've heard "Jerry Matthews" and "Great Course" in the same sentence....at least not on purpose...

Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Roger Wolfe

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2009, 06:32:19 AM »
Virginia National is one of my favorite courses.  It could be considered a "hidden gem" or a "stand alone."  I used to work in the DC/VA market and we always made the trek from Stafford to Berryville to play VN.  It was (and I hope still is) owned by one man and is truly his "labor of love."  We met him several times at golf shows and other events.  It's amazing in October... especially the par three on the back nine with the 100' drop to the green.  Great place!

Stephen Britton

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2009, 06:57:38 AM »
Didn't this course just get sold?

This from 3abc last month,

The struggling economy is taking a hard swing at local golf courses. Two area golf courses are facing foreclosure. Virginia National Golf Course in Clarke County is scheduled to be sold at an auction on February 18th. Jackson's Chase Golf Club in Middletown is scheduled be sold at an auction on March 9th. Both of these sales are contingent upon any last-minute financing.

John Kuliesh, head golf professional at Virginia National Golf Club says the current owner of the course is trying to renegotiate the loan with the financing company before having to go to auction.

"I think that a lot of individuals are looking at golf as a great leisure time activity but something that has kind of gone to the back burner a little bit," says Kuliesh.

The company that handles Blue Ridge Shadows Golf Club in Front Royal filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on December first of last year. On Sunday, the course had 145 golfers and the golf professional at the course says he is optimistic that 2009 will be a great year.




"The chief object of every golf architect or greenkeeper worth his salt is to imitate the beauties of nature so closely as to make his work indistinguishable from nature itself" Alister MacKenzie...

Bruce Leland

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2009, 07:21:53 AM »
Cant say I've heard "Jerry Matthews" and "Great Course" in the same sentence....at least not on purpose...


I've heard "Jerry Matthews" and "Great Guy" in the same sentence often enough!
"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Jon Heise

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2009, 09:54:34 AM »
Looks like a nice piece of land there.  Can we get some nice weather soon, please?

I dont get why some here are ripping on Jerry Matthews.  Living in Michigan, Ive seen quite a few.  Thought Timberstone and Elk Ridge are fantastic.  St Ives and Greystone pretty good, then a couple smaller, muni-like courses that were pretty decent.  Just seems like his designs (or him?) arent in favor here...


Rich, not bad.  I just played Devil's Ridge in Oxford yesterday.  Just as dreary, but a very cool course.  Quite a long drive from where we're at.  Raisin River should be a go.  I'll have a couple others that would want to play to.  And of course, I'll have some backups ready if the Rais' doesnt work out.
I still like Greywalls better.

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2009, 11:00:32 AM »
Looks like a nice piece of land there.  Can we get some nice weather soon, please?

I dont get why some here are ripping on Jerry Matthews.  Living in Michigan, Ive seen quite a few.  Thought Timberstone and Elk Ridge are fantastic.  St Ives and Greystone pretty good, then a couple smaller, muni-like courses that were pretty decent.  Just seems like his designs (or him?) arent in favor here...


Rich, not bad.  I just played Devil's Ridge in Oxford yesterday.  Just as dreary, but a very cool course.  Quite a long drive from where we're at.  Raisin River should be a go.  I'll have a couple others that would want to play to.  And of course, I'll have some backups ready if the Rais' doesnt work out.

Jon,
  It's cause all his courses look the same. I worked at at JM course growing up, the same one that my dad currently works at. Railside, Wallingwood, Timber Ridge, Emerald, Hawk Hollow, Scott Lake, Mistwood, etc...I took a class that he taught at MSU. He doesnt do anything darring and everything is cookie cutter. In fact, I got graded down on my final project for having a blind hole!  JMs mounding, bunkers, greens all look like something else he's done. Now Bruce matthews, SR did some good work in his day and Bruce Matthews, III did a wonderful job at Angels Crossing.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Rich Brittingham

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2009, 01:31:03 PM »
I've been playing the course for about 5 years. It is under new ownership now although I'm not sure the specifics, but the new ownership has lost that "hidden gem" feel.  Prior to last year you could get out there on a weekend for right around $50, which felt right considering its a good 45 minute drive from my house. But it has since crept into the $79 realm, standard for daily fee courses in northern virginia. 
Architecturally I've never found the course to be significant, it was always the surrounding landscape which drew me to the course. The Shenendoah River is visible from most holes, while never truly in play.  There are no homes on the course, which is in stark contrast to most courses in this area. 
The hillside holes are really fun, and the last 2 holes mix a drivable par 4 with a difficult long 4 shotter which makes for a solid finish. 
The course is always wet being in the floodplain and at the base of a mountain, but come summertime the greens roll very well. 
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 01:35:03 PM by Rich Brittingham »

Richard Hetzel

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2009, 04:59:43 PM »
We paid $29 (with coupon in hotel book) with cart. Usually around $45 now.

Tony,

Can you tell me why they slice the greens there in Virginia instead of aerate them with holes?

Rich
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2009, 09:52:02 PM »
Rich,
  Sorry, I just saw this. They may have just sliced them to open them up a bit, buy some time prior to aerifying them in a couple weeks. Maybe high season is coming up and they will aerify after. I know we "vent" out bentgrass greens in Feb and aerify in March.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Dave Doxey

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2013, 07:48:07 PM »
Sadly, Virginia National is no more.  Chapter-11 three years ago and never opened for the 2012 season.

It's been for sale for a long time, with no takers.

Built on a civil war battlefield site, it's been talked about as a possible conversion to a historic park.

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2013, 09:35:35 PM »
What was the reason that Virginia National went under?

Ron Whitten is building a new course in Lake Anna called Cutalong.  Are they close to each other?

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2013, 10:48:39 PM »
What was the reason that Virginia National went under?

Ron Whitten is building a new course in Lake Anna called Cutalong.  Are they close to each other?

Joel, they are not close to each other at all.  VN is pretty much straight west of DC about an hour.  Cutalong is near Fredricksburg, south of DC a little over an hour.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Dave Doxey

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2013, 07:16:06 PM »
What was the reason that Virginia National went under?

Ron Whitten is building a new course in Lake Anna called Cutalong.  Are they close to each other?

Interesting question.  I actually considered making an offer on the course when an auction was scheduled & did some research.  Being retired, I thought I might be able turn it around. The financial model simply does not work. 

(I requested membership in GolfClubAtlas in hopes of participating in exactly this kind of discussion – How do we save existing golf architecture in these tough times?, - So forgive me if I get into too many details.)

Virginia National is doomed by location.  90+ minutes west of DC, some of which is high-toll road, pretty much eliminates regular players from DC.  20 miles to the west is low-priced, good value,  competition from 5 other public courses.  Population within 15-20 miles is very sparse – no cities.

On the western side of a mountain, sunrise is late, meaning reduced playability, in terms of both frost delays and season length.

Looking at competition within 30 miles, weekend prime-time rates would  end up around $70 with cart. While weekday play would be near non-existent, even with rates under $30.

As discussed in this thread, the course setting is magnificent, and the layout above average. However, the place just cannot generate the number of rounds needed to break even.

The initial owner kept the course in immaculate shape with, in my opinion, the best public course greens in the DC area.  Before the recession and gas price jump, the course commanded $80+ prime rates and likely did 15K rounds per year.  This probably came close to break-even.

After a sale, which was just prior to the recession, the new (absentee) owner cut maintenance spending in response to lower play.  This resulted in a few periods of very poor course conditions (loss of greens & fairways), which in turn, reduced play even more.  The resulting death-spiral ended with the note-holder (Textron) taking  back the course & being unable to sell or auction at an acceptable price.  It was operated on contract by Love Golf for one season. Even with prime time fees slashed to under $40, it generated what I estimate to be under 10K rounds per year, largely due to poor course conditions that resulted from a dramatically reduced maintenance budget.

Textron finally gave up & ceased operation.  The course was offered to a civil war trust nonprofit for what I have heard was $1M.  Last I heard, the  trust had not made the purchase as they could find no park authority willing to convert it to a park and operate it.  The course continues to be listed on several golf course real estate sites.  I have no firm knowledge of the price.  I would expect it to be in the $2M price range.

Anyone with more course operating experience than me who cares to comment on the viability of the business? 

While some closed courses are no loss, I've seen too many worthwhile ones go.  Virginia National will be missed by those of us who played there frequently.  Is there hope for some of these troubled courses, with new owners applying better management & operating techniques?

Roger Wolfe

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2013, 08:13:37 PM »
Hi Guys,

I hope I can offer some perspective into the Northern Virginia upscale daily fee market.  VN was one of my favorite courses but it was difficult to get there.  A similar tale is the story of Augustine Golf Club in Stafford, VA.

I was hired as the controller at Augustine in March of 1997 (after previous management robbed the single Japanese owner blind).  I was promoted to a GM position in 1999.  Back then we competed with two other courses (Raspberry Falls and Queenstown Harbor).  You either spent $70 for a perfect golf course or played a muni or Mom and Pop or belonged to a private club.  We did 42,000 rounds back then and all we had to do was open the doors.  Thursday through Sunday was packed and we did minimal outings.  I lived inside the beltway my first several months and it was 35 minutes door to door anytime except for weekday rush hour.

The first problem is competition.  Between 1997 and 2001 they built 50 (I physically counted them one day) “upscale daily fee” courses in the DC area.  We still did 42,000 rounds but a big majority of those were corporate outings (over 100 per year).  There were just not enough golfers and too many courses. 

The second problem was congestion and development.  If you have ever driven down I-95 from Alexandria to Stafford, VA (30 miles) it now takes over an hour just about any time you travel, especially from 7 to 10 AM on a Saturday or Sunday morning.

The third problem was 9/11.  After 9/11 almost all of the corporate outing money either went away or it went to the private clubs.  Why would you host an outing at a public course when you could play a well-respected private club for the same money?  The private clubs, running short of members, were forced to bring in corporate outings thus robbing the private sector.  The charities were still there... but the money there is much less lucrative.

The fourth problem was October 2002 through June 2003.  By this time I was running Swan Point Yacht & CC in southern Maryland.  This was the worst weather period (9 months) in the history of mid-Atlantic golf.  Public golf courses  lost just about every weekend during this span from mid October 2002 through Father’s Day 2003.  October, April, May and June weekends were worth about $20,000 a pop to the successful, upscale daily fee courses.  Losing 15 prime time weekends cost a lot of owners close to $300,000 in much needed revenue.  As all of you know you cannot lay off cart boys and recoup that kind of revenue.  What is the only course of action for a public facility with little F&B, Admin and Management expenses?  You cut golf course maintenance.  The decline of upscale daily fee maintenance in the DC area started in mid-2003 and the market never recovered.

Augustine was sold three times since that time and I understand it is now owned by a group that owns Raspberry Falls, Old Hickory, Cannon Ridge and several others.  It has been re-grassed but I understand it is a shadow of what it used to be in the late 90’s when we achieved a ranking of 98 on the Golf Magazine “Places You Can Play” list.

I am sure Virginia National was a victim of this same situation along with close to 100 other good facilities in the area.  I luckily escaped to the private sector in late 2004.  I can’t imagine working in the public sector now.  I met the owner of Virginia National back in 2000 or 2001.  He was a great guy and his golf course was truly a labor of love.  Not counting Trump and Kohler, I am not sure many of those folks exist anymore, especially in DC.  Sad stuff.

Dave Doxey

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2016, 11:17:29 AM »
Course NLE - closed for 3 years.  Even more dreary pics from a visit in December.


#18 view from green. All those ball marks that I fixed.....





Signature par 3 #14





#13 from tee



Stephen Northrup

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2016, 10:46:48 AM »
Looks like you could still get some drop-shot par-3 practice in on #14. Played it myself a couple of times many years ago -- some of the holes were awkward but it was a pretty setting for golf, especially in the fall. Too far from DC or close-in suburbs, though, otherwise it might have held on.


DC-Baltimore area has a number of decent municipal/public options that are affordable, which really puts the squeeze on the "upscale" privates and limits what they can charge per round. I haven't done a formal survey but it seems that the Whiskey Creeks and Westfields of the area are charging the same or less per round than they did during the Tiger Era boom time.

Dave Doxey

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2016, 11:51:52 AM »
 In the DC, MD & N. VA area, decent low fee munis are few, with the exception of the 3 N. VA parks courses.

 
High end publics seem to have tried to maintain their absurdly high rack rates, however many players utilize GolfNow or TeeOff to book at much lower rates.

 
Where one once had to book early to get a time, at almost all courses it's pretty much walk on at any time now.  That would seem to indicate that more closures are coming.

 
Virginia National was sort of in the middle, between high end and low priced munis. Remote location, nearby competition, and bad (or lack of) management by the last owner, who was a hobbyist more than a golf operator,  led to Chap-11.  As the course was built on a civil war battle site, the course was purchased at a bargain price by a non-profit preservation organization and given to Shenandoah University to operate as a nature center.  When it was kept in condition, VA National was among the best in the area, especially the greens.  In it's final years, upkeep was reduced and the conditions reflected it.

 
Nearby Goose Creek, in Leesburg is being reduced to 9 holes on a flood plain, as the rest of the course will be developed for housing and retail.

 
Beacon Hill, a private Johnny Miller design in Leesburg that closed 5 years or so ago after being open only 3 or 4 years, was given to the housing development HOA by the bank for $1. The HOA is considering a proposal from a course operator to reopen as a private country club.  Hard to figure how that could be sustainable, as it lacks a clubhouse and local privates have been significantly dropping initiation fees. I guess we'll see...

Stephen Northrup

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Re: Virginia National GC - Jerry Matthews - Dreary Pics - Great Course
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2016, 12:05:59 PM »
In the DC, MD & N. VA area, decent low fee munis are few, with the exception of the 3 N. VA parks courses.


Acknowledging that "decent" is in the eye of the holder, there are a few decent munis in the Maryland suburbs of DC -- Enterprise, Hampshire Greens, and Redgate, to name three. There are also a couple of George Cobb designs that aren't munis but are priced similarly -- University of Maryland GC and Glenn Dale.

Agree that you can probably walk on just about any public within an hour of DC on a Saturday morning -- quite a change from the Tiger Era when one had to be pounding redial button at 7 am on a Tuesday morning to have any chance of playing before noon Saturday.