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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Was Tillie Right?
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2015, 01:46:52 PM »

In the summer of 1935, A.W. Tillinghast began a tour of the U.S. to consult on host courses of PGA members.  When he was finished, he made approximately two trips around the country to over 500 courses.  His most famous recommendation at many facilities was the elimination of bunkers, specifically "duffer headache" bunkers, those bunkers that were especially punishing to high handicappers and expensive to maintain.  (This information can be found at http://www.tillinghast.net/Tillinghast/Tour_Service.html)

With expense dominating course survival discussions, what would a current trip around the country for Tillinghast look like now compared to then?  Was he on to something with his widespread elimination of bunkers for better playability and cost control?  How would he react to modern maintenance practices, both good and bad?
 
Ken,
 
I think the answer to your question can be found by examining AWT's work, what he himself put in the ground.
 
One look at Ridgewood, Baltusrol, Quaker Ridge, Winged Foot (W&E), Fenway, Shackamaxon, Somerset Hills tells you that AWT did NOT practice what he preached.
 
Was he just the dummy with the PGA being the ventriloquist ? ;D


Ken

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Tillie Right?
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2015, 11:02:59 PM »
Tom,
I think we are in agreement.  I don't know SFGC as well as you but I have played it a dozen or more times over the years and have studied some of its evolution.  Did you keep all the fairway bunkers in their original locations or did you move some down range to restore design intent?  I might be wrong but would have guessed that maybe 8, 13 and 14 were moved?  Most of the other bunkers were put back into play for the long hitters with the new back tees like on 3-9-10-12-14-15.
Mark

Phil Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Tillie Right?
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2016, 06:11:49 PM »
Peter, you wrote, "As far as I know, none of the artists funded through the WPA's art project went around renovating existing art by other artists." Tilly's PGA Course Consultation Tour wasn't funded by the WPA.

I think what has been missed by everyone who has commented so far is an understanding of the specific constraints under which Tilly conducted the course examinations during this tour. He had to:
1- Only visit a course where they employed a professional who was a member of the PGA of America. As a result there were a number of courses whose professionals joined so that their club could benefit from this resulting in much needed funds being brought into the PGA..
2- That Professional's membership dues must be current and paid up-to-date. If funds were owed he couldn't visit. As a result, many professionals restored and/or brought their membership dues situation up-to-date bringing in much needed funds to the PGA.
3- Tilly could not visit any course even where the PGA professional had his dues up-to-date unless and until the Club/Professional made a request to the PGA for his visit. It would then be "scheduled." This was adjusted after about the first two months when the response and request for visits was already becoming nearly overwhelming. Tilly was then given some latitude to "include" clubs at the last minute but only where they could be properly fit in. On a number of occasions he would have to make arrangements to see these during his "next visit" to the area. This would again be re-adjusted several months later and again, unless there was a very specific reason not to, everything was once again arranged through the PGA.
4- Because his visits were scheduled for him, and in a manner that would enable him to maximize the number of clubs he could see during his visits both daily and the time allotted for the area he would be at, the clubs requesting him had to be specific in exactly what they wanted his consultation on. If it was to be a full-course examination than that is what he would do, but many clubs were only interested in his opinion of one or several holes and so that was all he would look at for them.
5- Any recommended work was not to be done by Tilly but by a local golf course architect and Tilly would provide names to the clubs. A good example of that is Brook Hollow. That is how Perry Maxwell was hired by them to redesign the greens after Tilly's visit.
6- Recommended improvements were specific to the individual courses that he visited.

Why mention all of that? Because the Ken asked three questions, the first being, "With expense dominating course survival discussions, what would a current trip around the country for Tillinghast look like now compared to then?"

Ken's second question was, " Was he on to something with his widespread elimination of bunkers for better playability and cost control?" Just as he did in 1935-37 and conducted his course consultation visits within the framework that he agreed with the PGA to do, so today, if he toured the country on their behalf once again, it would see him staying within the restrictions that were agreed upon. That is why I don't believe that he would participate in a nation-wide tour as set-up by the ASGCA/USGA. For example, his expenses and a small stipend was paid to him and that is something NOT given to any of the architects who will participate in this modern arrangement. I purposefully use the word "arrangement" because it is that and not a "tour" at all. Also, the need for the PGA Tour in the 30s was far more complex than what exists today. Back then the very existence of the organization was being threatened by the Great Depression; today, despite the recent numbers of course closings and loss of players, television revenues will prevent the game from being substantially damaged in the long-term and the majority of today's clubs, and also some new ones as time goes on, will remain for many years to come.

Would Tilly have given his time to visit a few courses under this arrangement? I believe he would as he was a big supporter of those organizations, including the PGA & USGA, of which he was a member.
 
As for the "duffer's headaches" and Tilly's recommendations for these to be removed, Tilly had written about the need to remove unnecessary bunkers and especially that courses should enable the "lesser" player to be able to play the course and enjoy it for many years prior to this tour. The fact is that there were many courses that he visited where there wasn't any mention of DH bunkers needing removal. That is why I believe that today he would once again be recommending the removal of numerous bunkers whether they be modern DH's or not.
 
Ken's third question was, "Was he on to something with his widespread elimination of bunkers for better playability and cost control?  How would he react to modern maintenance practices, both good and bad?"

Tilly was fluent in almost all areas concerning the design and long-term care of golf courses. For example, he wrote a number of articles about grass types even mentioning what areas of the country where they were best used. He also recognized that others knew more about certain specifics of course construction and maintenance and both used and recommended their use to clubs at which he worked. That is why I believe that he would today have been very well versed in current construction and maintenance practices and would most certainly have freely given his opinions on them. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Was Tillie Right?
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2016, 06:47:26 PM »
Phil Young,
 
You would know better than anyone.
 
Did AWT supervise the removal of bunkers on any of his courses ?

Phil Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Tillie Right?
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2016, 05:08:35 AM »
Pat,

Yes he did. I'm assuming that you're referring to the PGA Course Consultation Tour period. Here's an example:

On December 5, 1935 he visited the Hermitage Country Club. I chose this one both because of what he wrote and that it also answers, in part, a question from another thread about who were used to construct Tillinghast courses, in this case, Peter Lees. Lees was one of a number of construction supervisors that worked for Tilly who we know by name and the projects they worked on.
.
12/5/1935: “I visited the course of the Hermitage Country Club at Richmond, Virginia. Nearly twenty years ago I laid out this course and it was constructed under the direction of the late Peter Lees, who was in my employ at the time…”
      "I candidly criticized a number of hazards, which I had placed myself, just as I have done at many other courses. But it must be remembered that general play has lengthened out considerably in twenty years and that long ago we were just that much closer to another period of course conception. The pits which I condemned today come under my classification of “Duffers Headaches” and without hesitation I took my own medicine, which I have been prescribing. I will say however that the pits which I closed today were comparatively few in number and in no instance did they represent carries but rather side pits. Closer in than we place them now.”

Hermitage was one of a number of his courses which he visited during the tour, some of whom he recommended the removal of bunkers at...
« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 02:05:55 PM by Phil Young »

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Tillie Right?
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2016, 11:11:11 AM »

Tilly was fluent in almost all areas concerning the design and long-term care of golf courses. For example, he wrote a number of articles about grass types even mentioning what areas of the country where they were best used. He also recognized that others knew more about certain specifics of course construction and maintenance and both used and recommended their use to clubs at which he worked. That is why I believe that he would today have been very well versed in current construction and maintenance practices and would most certainly have freely given his opinions on them.


Phil,

Thank you for your response.

The third question I asked regarding modern maintenance practices, both good and bad, was not directed at Tillinghast's understanding of such topics.  Despite his lack of formal education, his sharp mind is well documented.  If given a window in 1935 to see current day accepted maintenance practices and design characteristics, my question was a hypothetical "what would he say?"

How would Tillinghast view the evolution from Golden Age to heavy handed championship level design through to the current minimalist revival of Golden Age philosophies and also the expected level of manicuring and maintenance most current players expect?

Ken

Ken

Phil Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Tillie Right?
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2016, 01:19:56 AM »
Ken,

Let me split your question into the two different parts it contains to better answer.

"How would Tillinghast view the evolution from Golden Age to heavy handed championship level design through to the current minimalist revival of Golden Age philosophies..."

When it comes to "current course design philosophies" Tilly always adapted to those times without significantly changing his personal design philosophies. The best proof of this is contained in my response to Pat above. In describing how he "took my own medicine" in removing DH bunkers, he also said, "But it must be remembered that general play has lengthened out considerably in twenty years and that long ago we were just that much closer to another period of course conception."

That is a powerful sentence for what it is really stating. Tilly recognized that during his own time as an architect there were different periods of "course conception." In other words, that there were what we might refer to as trends in the types and styles of courses being designed and built. Yet Tilly stayed true to his design philosophies and simply made adjustments in how they were applied at various stages of his career. That is why I believe that he would not have had any problem designing courses during any era of “course conception.” 

You followed that with, "...and also the expected level of manicuring and maintenance most current players expect?" Consider the level of maintenance that clubs of his design were performing during the Great Depression as seen in the photo below of weeds being pulled at Quaker Ridge from the July 1931 Golf Illustrated. I sincerely doubt that Tilly would have had any problem with maintenance issues today…



JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Tillie Right?
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2016, 01:33:57 PM »
It is interesting how a few years made a difference in Tillinghast's approach to design.  I have been doing research on a golf course in the NE that had Tillinghast visit in 1926.  [size=78%]He did suggest adding some yardage and adding a few bunkers but nothing like some have suggested what he was doing in the 1930's,  taking out bunkers.[/size]


In retrospect didn't we just witness a change in golf design with the 2008  downturn in golf.  Industry experts stood up and asked for a philosophy change, easier to maintain, easier to play, less restrictive.  Golf course owners, developers,  designers trying to adapt to economic times.   


I see nothing wrong with adaptation. but it is still up to what the golfing public wants to see and play.

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Tillie Right?
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2016, 09:34:25 AM »
In retrospect didn't we just witness a change in golf design with the 2008  downturn in golf.  Industry experts stood up and asked for a philosophy change, easier to maintain, easier to play, less restrictive.  Golf course owners, developers,  designers trying to adapt to economic times.   

I see nothing wrong with adaptation. but it is still up to what the golfing public wants to see and play.


Jim,


I agree.


We saw a significant shift in philosophy after 2008, particularly with the mid-tier private clubs.


When I first began working in the late 1980's, every committee wanted to add more bunkering.
All the "new" work of the day seemed to be based around having 80 to 90 bunkers and they saw that as the standard
The 80's and 90's were "visually" competitive.


I find a lot of those same mid-tier clubs now to be "practical".
They still want some aesthetics, but the bunker counts after a renovation often come in closer to 50.
They are into tree removal, the addition of short grass and more efficient placement of bunkers.
There is far less emphasis on visuals and far more on play.


What's mostly gone is the "aiming or outside bunkering"
What has me most curious is whether this trend lasts, or ends with the next economic expansion.

With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

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