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Dan Herrmann

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Re:Maybe too little too late, but....
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2007, 04:07:29 PM »
Sean,
The same factors are facing the town I grew up in, Tonawanda NY.  It's the former home of Dunlop, and has a Ford and Chevy plant.  The economy up there (metro Buffalo) is just not good.

But the munis in Tonawanda (Sheridan and Brighton) are always in pretty darn good shape.  They get a lot of play for not a lot of money.  

I wonder what the difference is?



SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Maybe too little too late, but....
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2007, 07:35:30 PM »
I can't speak to the current situation but as a young man I spent a number of summers in SW Michigan and can attest that there were a number of Mom and Pops that were a lot of fun.  Courses at Gull Lake, Paw Paw, Dowagiac, Watervliet  among others were great places to spend a day for a reasonable fee and become involved with golf.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Maybe too little too late, but....
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2007, 02:57:29 PM »
OK, for many of us, it is the end of the season. It is report card time, and Dad is going to hear about it if you didn't do well.......

Tell us your M&P stories.....

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Maybe too little too late, but....
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2007, 05:12:27 PM »
Well Joe, Not sure if this is what you mean...But...

I played the majority of my golf this year, not at Ballyneal, but at Ma Pops around western Nebraska.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Maybe too little too late, but....
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2007, 08:39:38 PM »
Of course I know exactly what Adam speaks of as I was his guest just a few weeks ago, and know that you could literally walk from his ranchette to the local mom and pop which happens to be owned and run by someone I might call the dean of superintendents in Nebraska.   That 'mom and pop' literally owned and operated by a family which starts with help from grandpa, son (the super and do all be all club manager), and assistance of his wife and now even younger children, is the place one goes to be real.  To be a real golfer, socialize with other community golfers, and have many more aspects beyond just teeing up the little white ball and playing just golf.  It is a focal point of socialization.  The fact that it is run by a man who has maintained the so-called 6th best course in the world, is but a co-incidental benefit along with the more central issue, that you are among your community of friends that share a common recreational and social pursuit that happens to take place at this non-descript, never will rank architecturally, golf venue.  You just get a nice golf place to play due to the knowledge of the owner/operator, and more importantly, a place to be.  (The course is called West Winds in Ogallala run by Cory Crandall, BTW)

I think like Adam's situation, one must seperate golf into at least two distinct categories.  One is the passionate pursuit most everyone on GCA.com shares of experiencing great golf design/architecture, and intensely critiquing and discussing all the minutia that comes with a pursuit that is in my view somewhat priveleged and elete.   Not many can belong to a BallyNeal.  Yet, if you are fortunate enough to play or belong, it is a higher sort of calling to pursue, and we would all seek such out if we possibly could.  There is no doubt that for the sake of golf course design appreciation, spending your time and money to experience such is part of the passionate pursuit and investigation of the finer and greater points of GCA.

It takes some financial means and connections to go travelling in these high brow, golf architecture cirlces and then come on GCA.com and write comments to show your GCA accumen.   Yet, you can still be a 'real golfer' and ply your game at the local M&P.

Perhaps, the soul of the game and the spirit that truly warms your heart and makes you thankful to declare "I am a golfer" is to play, compete, and socialise at the modest places where ALL golfers of every economic strata can go to celebrate the shear joy of playing, competing, and loving the life that goes with that sort of atmosphere.  That occurs most often at mom and pops.

I think that the golf scene is local, just as they say... all politics are local.   There are varying balances of muni-mom and pop- private and semi private club structures and accessibility, depending on your geographic location.  

Personally, I am first and foremost a municipal golf course patron.  But, my circumstance may be so unique due to the tradition and what has developed in my area of Green Bay Wisconsin, with the incredibly great muni we have, that it may not be quite the same balance as other folks in other areas.  But, what might be similar, is the falling back to the 'mom and pops' once the muni is closed for the year or before it opens in spring.

Ironically, I played my last rounds of the year today on my beloved muni, which in the last two weeks since the lines were blown, and with the rich dewey nights has yeilded course conditions as good as I have ever experienced anywhere... Today was the last day, and I played from morning until dark and felt I have never played anywhere better (and I've seen a few).  

Now it is over as we have reached the date of official close today.  Yet, there is good weather coming.  Now is the time for the local "mom and pops".  One of our local M&Ps banks on this 'shoulder' or pre-post season time when the premier affordable muni course closes, and the fanatics will come to take advantage of the M&Ps spring or fall offers.   We will play and drink and socialise afterwords and hopefully help them get over the hump (if they really have a hump).  They do good business all year anyway.  But, the balance that is struck here locally has evolved to a very happy medium.  Everyone in the golf course management and ownership game seems to have enough time to all get their beaks wet.  

Yet, I know full well, our local situation is ideal, and many of you don't have quite as good of a situation.  

So, as Joe said, you need to get out there and have some pure unpretentious fun at M&Ps.  Forget rankings, status, expectations of top turf conditions, and look for the little things that still allow you to feel the joy.  Most M&Ps strive to do something different in the way of a local touch, ammenity, etc.  Those opportunities are out there if you seek them out.  

If you have a M&P, go see if there is something that drives their dream to work the long hours, and probably not make the big bucks, yet keep them in the game to continue to run their operation in lieu of the big sell-out.  They have their golf dreams, just like you.  ;) ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Gary Daughters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Maybe too little too late, but....
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2007, 10:48:31 PM »
Wayne Morrison,

I'm sorry.  With all due respect you are either helplessly condescending or hopelessly out of touch.  

"These sorts of venues" are where most of us learn to play and fall in love with the game and continue to enjoy it.

"The kind of golf Joe is advocating" IS golf.  

Maybe you should try it.  You might learn something.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 10:52:39 PM by Gary Daughters »
THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

Peter Pallotta

Re:Maybe too little too late, but....
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2007, 11:59:52 PM »
Nice post, RJ

Joe - I've played about 6 times in the last two years (around the birth of our first child), and 2 of those rounds were at mom and pop courses. With the lay-off, I'm playing very poorly, so maybe this won't mean much -- but I find that, for whatever combinations of reasons, I score just about the same on a 6000 yard mom and pop course as I do from 6,600 yards on high-end public courses (and when I move back to the whites on those courses, I do even better). Which is to say, I've never found that the mom and pop courses are all that easy, or easier. Btw, I remembered this thread, and not just because I posted on it -- it gave me then and still does now a lot of food for thought.

Peter  

TEPaul

Re:Maybe too little too late, but....
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2007, 08:06:02 AM »
Joe:

Maybe it is hard for some to take a guy like you seriously because you can be such a joker on here. But probably because of that when you say something serious (like this thread) I think people tend to take it very seriously. I'm going to take you up on your point next year.

wsmorrison

Re:Maybe too little too late, but....
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2007, 08:26:29 AM »
Gary Daughters,

With all due respect, the only person I was condescending to was Mike Malone for the point he made.  I applaud Joe's concept and the Mom and Pop concept in all endeavors.  If you considered my initial post on this thread rather than my Mike Malone bashing, you might have learned this.  I am not helplessly condescending nor hopelessly out of touch.  But then again, if I was, I wouldn't know it so maybe I am  ;)

We don't have many Mom and Pop courses in this area.  We never really did.  But I promise to play Jeffersonville next year and will be playing Cobb's Creek in a few weeks.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 08:31:02 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Brian Laurent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Maybe too little too late, but....
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2007, 09:14:48 AM »
Great suggestion, Joe!  About three years ago, my father fulfilled his life-long dream of purchasing the M&P course where he learned the game.  I'm a bit biased, but he's done a fantastic job bringing the course back to life!

Public golf is an increasingly difficult business.  Most public golfers are looking for the best price, not best course.  Outings are generally what keep these places alive.  Also, with the big box sporting goods stores basically selling hard goods for cost, this part of the business has all but been eliminated.  

"You know the two easiest jobs in the world? College basketball coach or golf course superintendent, because everybody knows how to do your job better than you do." - Roy Williams | @brianjlaurent | @OHSuperNetwork

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Maybe too little too late, but....
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2007, 10:11:44 AM »
I play many 'mom and pop' courses in the Philly area.  In fact, the course I spend most of my time at, Shannondell (formerly known as 'GW'), is a fun little track.  If you live around Philly and haven't played it in say 10 years or so, you might want to revisit.  It is nothing stunning architecturally but the price is right (15 bucks yesterday after noon and they allow walking anytime Kyle!) and the pro (Drew Hood) and supe (Dave Civitelli) make you feel very welcome.

Other nice M&P's in Philly that are better courses than GDub which I play frequently:  Hickory Valley's Presidential, Bella Vista, Honeybrook, and Turtle Creek.  If you want to see some of these layouts, I slowly but surely have taken photos of many Philly area courses this year and have them organized alphabetically here:

http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/golf/alphabetical_course_photos.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Maybe too little too late, but....
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2007, 10:20:56 AM »
Wayne, Please continue with the Mike Malone bashing. Please...... I beg of you.

Crazy Joe,
I fully do agree with you. The Big Tee Golf Center, the very place I learned to play golf, is no longer existing. In it's place are some more wonderful houses with an architectural style that makes no sense. The property simply became more valuable then the golf course.

Boy how I miss a bucket of balls, maybe nine holes on the William Johnson designed course and then a pticher of beer and a Big Tee Burger afterwards. (This may have been one of the great places for a burger anywhere.)

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Maybe too little too late, but....
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2007, 10:27:06 AM »
It doesn't seem like Mom and Pop courses open anymore near cities - and I wish that there was one anywhere near me. I have four little ones who all want to play, and my yard is the worse for it. But an afternoon of golf at any of the local courses costs north of $200, as none of them offer any kind of children's rate. I suppose it's like flying on an airplane - a child takes up as much room as an adult does - but still..........
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Maybe too little too late, but....
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2016, 08:31:47 PM »
Great idea and I have two suggestions for everyone in the Philly and Lehigh Valley area:

Sweet Water Golf Course in Pennsburg, PA
http://www.golfsweetwater.com/   A speacil recommendation on this one as I am close freinds with the owners Sharon and Jeff Vietmeier. Jeff is a product of the PSU Turf program, interned at Augusta and has been a Supt in at least three different states. He actually volunteered for the Masters. Jeff always has the greens as firm as he can. The ideal round at Sweetwater would be with your kids and or wife, girlfreind etc.. Let them take all the clubs but you limit yourself to say five or six. Work on your irons and have fun. I think it's a great value for the fee and they are very friendly.

In L.V. is Tumblebrook in Coopersburg. This course has been talked about on here before. It has been under a new management the last few years and I hear that they are doing a very nice job. Very fun course to play with glimses of Ross.

Pay these two a visit, you won't be dissapointed.


SBR has recommended two fine 'mom and pop' courses in the Delaware Valley.


Photos:


http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/SweetWater/


http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/Tumblebrook/
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection