The Dormie Club (Coore/Crenshaw) - A Photo Tour - All 18 Posted

[Andy Troeger]

Mac,
I'm not familiar with the Sand Hills hole, but they certainly have designed lots of little par threes with wild greens. #5 at Bandon Trails #2 at Colorado GC, and #4 at Warren come to mind.

Mark,
I will agree that they could make #15 better by thinning out that area to make the ball findable...just to be able to hack the ball into play and avoid the stroke and distance penalty.

[Jud_T]

Mark,

Yes.

Andy,

Ok.  I finally got an answer.  From Brad Klein's review in the current issue of Golfweek:

 "Technically, Coore and Crenshaw have yet to complete the now-opened course.  Finish work remains on the transitional areas as the fairways bleed out into the native sandy-scrub wasteland.  Proper rough, as such, does not exist;  the model here might well be what they achieved at Pinhurst No. 2.  Bunker deliniation is also an issue at Dormie Club;  it's not yet clear whether sandy pits will play as maintained bunkers or as "through the green" waste areas."

[Bart Bradley]

Mac,
I'm not familiar with the Sand Hills hole, but they certainly have designed lots of little par threes with wild greens. #5 at Bandon Trails #2 at Colorado GC, and #4 at Warren come to mind.

Mark,
I will agree that they could make #15 better by thinning out that area to make the ball findable...just to be able to hack the ball into play and avoid the stroke and distance penalty.

Andy:

I have seen all of those holes and the one at Sand Hills.  I really think this is the best one of the bunch.

Mac, other than being a short par 3 with an interesting green, what are the key ingredients in this "template".

Bart

[Mac Plumart]

Frankly, I am not sure I'm correct on this at all.  But the thought crossed my mind as I walked the hole.

Background first...I played The Dormie in a down pour.  Actually after 7 holes, the greens were flooded and the course was unplayable.  So I walked the remaining holes rather than play them.  As I walked up to the 12th tee, I saw the green and bunker complex surrounding it and thought, "Huh.  This looks just like 17 at Sand Hills but without the elevated green."  And as I walked closer and closer to the green and I examined the bunkering and the green, I began wondering about some other C&C holes that were similar.  There is one at Chechessee Creek that has a similiar feel.  Short par 3, heavily bunkered, interesting green...I think it is the 7th hole.

I'd love to know the distance of 12 at Dormie, 17 at Sand Hills, and 7 at Chechessee Creek.  I just walked in the door from work and I am too tired to look this stuff up...maybe I will tomorrow unless some else beats me to the punch.

Also, I'm trying to think of others that are similiar at Bandon Trials or Cuscowilla...but I don't see a great fit. Maybe 17 at Trails...but I need to think more about it when my mind isn't so tired. 

Again, I am not convinced I am right...but I did have this thought as I explained above.

[Mac Plumart]

Okay, I checked these three holes out a bit this morning. All are of different lengths, but all have cross bunkers/hazards short of the green and the same look of the bunkering around the green and all have interesting greens.  Template or not, they are real similar.

One side note, I was stunned by the difference in Sand Hills 17 from Ran's photos and my photos of the hole from last year.  Check'em out...

Ran's photo from 2005




Mine from 2010



Wildly different angle, but still you can see dramatic differences.  Sorry for the diversion of the thread.

[Craig Disher]

Andy,

Ok.  I finally got an answer.  From Brad Klein's review in the current issue of Golfweek:

 "Technically, Coore and Crenshaw have yet to complete the now-opened course.  Finish work remains on the transitional areas as the fairways bleed out into the native sandy-scrub wasteland.  Proper rough, as such, does not exist;  the model here might well be what they achieved at Pinhurst No. 2.  Bunker deliniation is also an issue at Dormie Club;  it's not yet clear whether sandy pits will play as maintained bunkers or as "through the green" waste areas."

I haven't read Brad's article in full - GW seems to have distro problems in my zipcode - but "technically" and contractually, C&C HAVE finished the course. I don't know where Brad's information came from. There is ongoing maintenance of the transitional areas but isn't that expected? Encouraging the desirable native grasses is a constant maintenance issue and having played DC last weekend I think it's obviously a focus of the greens staff. That work will never be finished.

Regarding the wetlands on #15, the club has cleaned out 10-20 yards of buffer on the tee side of the fairway so a ball hit short can be found and played. It's pretty rough ground and a dicey lie is almost guaranteed.

[Jud_T]

Craig,

He was generally quite complementary toward the course (I think he gave it a 7.5/10). 

[Andy Hughes]

Suppose I said Dormie 12 is a C&C template hole similar to 17 at Sand Hills, would I be stupid?   

And #11 at Sugarloaf.

[Jason Topp]

One side note, I was stunned by the difference in Sand Hills 17 from Ran's photos and my photos of the hole from last year.  Check'em out...


Wildly different angle, but still you can see dramatic differences.  Sorry for the diversion of the thread.

Mac -

I could easily be missing them but I can't see dramatic differences between the pictures other than lighting.

The older picture is taken from the top of the hill behind the tee (where I believe the old back tee used to be) and your photo looks to be from either the regular or the forward tee.  The bunkers might be very slightly different but that would be expected given the impact of wind on blowout bunkers.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 16: Par 3, 202 Yards

Just an OK par-3 in my mind.  Mid-length and downhill to a square-shaped green.  Not really a lot happening here.












Hole 17: Par 5, 506 Yards

The 17th caps a phenomenal set of par-5s.  The tee shot is played into the wind and the ideal tee shot will skirt the bunker on the inside corner of the dogleg.  Players not thinking of going for the green in two have plenty of room to play to the right with less than driver -- but don't push a driver as two of the deepest bunkers on the course guard the right side of the fairway about 250-280 yards from the tee.

Back tee view.




Middle tee view.  A much better angle.




About 265 yards from the green.  Up the hill and into the wind there is no chance of getting home from here.  But, the question is whether or not to try to carry the 'hell's half acre' bunker in the centre of the fairway -- it's about a 185 yard carry.

The lay-up is simple, provided one is willing to lay back.  The fairway gets narrower and narrower the closer the player gets to the centre bunker.  Lay-up to 140 yards and the fairway is wide... 110 yards, not so much.




From the left side of the fairway, 240 yards out.  Still tough to reach the green, but now only about 160 yards to get over the bunker.  You have to go for it from here.  Or do you?




The fairway narrows the closer one gets to the bunker on the lay-up.




From 125 yards out -- not pretty.  A lay-up closer to the green than this and the approach is completely blind.





The hell's half acre bunker.




Two-tiered green sloping severely back-to-front and with a false-front.




From 18 tee.




Hole 18: Par 4, 428 Yards

18 plays in the same direction as 17 and 1 and is straight into the wind.  There is not a lot of definition from the tee, but the line is just left of the fairway bunker.  Tee shots played up the left wil have a shorter approach and perhaps a slightly preferred angle into the green.  A bunker / waste area crosses the fairway about 280 yards from the tee.





The approach is one of the most demanding on the course.  The green (which may be the wildest on the course, other than 3) is open in front but is flanked by deep bunkers / waste areas.






From 50 yards short of the green.




With increased contrast some of the wild slopes of the 18th green are seen.




Missing the green to the right can be really bad news.




Looking back down 18.  Good news is that the 1st tee is only about 100 feet away!

[Mac Plumart]

Walking the course, I thought 16 was another template C&C par 3.  This one is, indeed, a spitting image of 7 at Chechessee Creek.  And for the record, I am not saying that is a bad thing...but sometimes it is just like "wow" I've seen this hole before.  Frankly, it is even more striking than Raynor templates.

And walking the course 17 blew me away.  That seemed to be an original C&C hole that I hadn't seen anywhere before (kind of like 5 at Cuscowilla is an original...at least from what I've seen).

18 seemed to be a nice finish and a nice way to ease you out of the round after the stunning 17th.

I need to get up there and play those last few holes. 

Thanks Mark...great thread.

[Michael Dugger]

The waste hazard on the approach at #17 reminds me of the hazard on the approach to #2 at Pine Valley.

[Jackson C]

Mark,  I feel #15 cape hole really rewards the long drive assuming you make it and are on the right side of the fairway.  The hole opens up for the approach -- you see more of the green.   Also you can miss way left and it will come off the hill and roll onto the green.  I don't think you can effectively play left off the hill if you hit a "lay up" off the tee - you wouldn't have the angle.  I agree with you that this hole is a bit too hard for shorter hitters.

Jud, the hill on 15 is similar in scale to Kingsley 16, and has similar effect.  However, you can't see the ball feed down the hill on 15, so not the joy of Kingsley. 

[John Foley]

Mark – First of all thanks for the great tour pics came out great and I really liked the review.

Not sure why so many have it as not a phenomenal course. I for one love #2. Have not played it post rework, but before that it was one of my all time favorites. However, I am much higher than most here are on how good Dormie is IMHO – I’m loving it and think it’s a world class golf course. Given that, in my 10 hole mix I would go Dormie 7 to 3. That’s after one play. I do need to get there again and see if it is as memorable as it is now 4 months after I was there. Maybe it’s my lack of top 10 or 100’s to play, but to me it was truly special.

Here are a few area’s where I think Dormie really stands out.

Routing – The loops, the cross overs, the tough finish, the non returning 9’s, great use of the topography (downhill & uphill shot abound – enough blind to keep the mind sharp). I would love to know why people would question the routing.

The mix of long & short – Love the short par 3’s and the brutal long par 4’s – the short 4’s and the great par 5’s. As an asemblance of holes I can’t find much fault at all.

The maintenance meld – the native area’s really stand out – I love that the transition from wast to sand in no defined – isn’t that the way it should be? No rough ! Why is that a problem. The free form tees very cool.

I would highly recommend anyone who is interested to get out there while you can and visit this special place.

[Howard Riefs]

Another superb photo tour by Mark.

Here's a link to Brad Klein's review of Dormie in the current Golfweek:

http://www.golfweek.com/news/2011/dec/01/dormie-club-worth-playing-nc-sandhills/

His "Rater Notebook"....

1. Ease and intimacy of routing: 6
2. Quality of feature shaping: 8
3. Natural setting and overall land plan: 8
4. Interest of greens and surrounding chipping contours: 10
5. Variety and memorability of par 3s: 9
6. Variety and memorability of par 4s: 6
7. Variety and memorability of par 5s: 9
8. Basic conditioning: 8
9. Landscape and tree management: 8
10. “Walk in the park” test: 6

Overall rating: 7.5

[Kalen Braley]

Perhaps someone can mark up this copy of the aerial provided to show what the routing is and where the confusion spots are:

[Mark Saltzman]

[Kalen Braley]

Thanks Mark,

That routing was actually my 2nd guess....after the 1st guess ended up not working!! 

[BCowan]

I wish that I had brought this thread to light, but the other one was really good offshoot.  I think Dormie is a really solid course.  However what holds it back is the disconnected maint meld.  Both times that I have played the course was during Thanksgiving week when the fairways are nice and firm and dormant.  The greens however are soft and fast due to being bent grass.  The retail golfer like fast and soft which I understand.  I think that hybrid bermuda which probably wasn't as popular when Dormie opened would fit the golf course perfect and many of the desired options would come out in the Architecture.  Also due to either the EPA, C&C, or the owners the course would drastically improve with tree removal around the green which block wind patterns and keep the course softer then i prefer.  Some holes I'll post opinions on.

#3, the green is very cool and very bold.  Both times I've played Dormie the greens were 11.5-12 on the stimp being my guess.  The green isn't built for those speeds imo.  Also the front false front being soft doesn't play nearly as well as it could if firm hybrid bermuda where the grass.  Tree removal behind the green really would help views, wind patterns, and firmness.

#6, This is one of the better Par 5's I've played.  Very fun tee shot.  Tree removal behind the green.  It's as if Dormie is trying to be a northern Michigan course and have each hole separated from the rest.

#8, I absolutely love the tee shot on this hole.  Thrilling.  The trees on the left come into play way too much considering the lake is right there and they act as a double hazard.  The green sits too close to or in a flood plain.  It looks out of place and a location 20 yards to the right on higher ground seems much more natural.  I also wonder why a drainage ditch wasn't built between 8 and 9, but I assume EPA wouldn't like it. 

#10, Never hit a solid tee shot on this hole and I just don't know.  Very indifferent.

#11, I really enjoyed reading Mark's thoughts on the hole for I found I learned a bit.  Probably due to me snap hooking both times I've played it, I really missed what Mark had mentioned in this thread.

#12, Is really an okay hole that might be better with a chainsaw. 

#13, I really liked this hole.  I like ball buster par 4's and then add a green that I recall runs away from the golfer.  Unfortunately there is a gully in front but I think with tree removal the hole would play much firmer.   

#14, The cant of the fairway neuters the hole too much for the shorter hitter to go left and gain an advantage.  Plus the soft Bent greens make hitting a hybrid off the tee the smart shot.  I like the fact it plays uphill.  It's an average hole that could be much better imo kinda like #13 at Kingsley club.  It was also nice to get a caddies view of the hole, for he has seen tons of rounds at the course. 

#15, The cant of the fairway is moving the ball to the right.  Long hitters can go for it, but with a short 2nd shot into the hole there really is no point.  I really like the hole, even though strategically off the tee its weak, It makes up for it around the green.

#18, Is an intimidating tee shot, the fairway looks like 12 yards wide.  the love grass on both sides reminds me of the dense tree cover you experience teeing off #18 at Radrick (which is horrible).  It's a very cool green and the 2nd shot is a joy.  It's a hole I'd want to play over and over before forming an opinion. 

Dormie all together is a very solid course.  I really think the maint miss match and excessive trees holds it back from being very good.  Great photos and hope for more people chime in on it. 

[Tim Passalacqua]

I just payed Dormie last weekend and continue to enjoy it.  Great holes on nice, hilly terrain.  The greens and surrounds are some of the more interesting I have played.  I don't think you could ever get bored with putting and chipping at Dormie.  Also, a big golf course.  The way it nestles into the hilly routing make it feel huge.  As people have said before, we would love to see the details to be finished.  Clearing out of some trees, added wasted areas and wire grass to give it that consistent feeling.  My biggest problem was the connection from tees to fairway.  There are at least 8 holes where you have to head over to the cart path to walk around wetlands.  After you play Mid Pines, you realize how much extra walking you did at Dormie.  Great course, a lot of fun, good challenge.....not to be missed, if you are in the Pinehurst area.

[Philip Hensley]

Very disappointed the tee to fairway cut thrus have been eliminated on many holes. Makes the course a long walk.

Overall I enjoy Dormie and think it is a great course to get golfers that have never though much about GCA to be interested in the subject.

[Carl Rogers]

Live 4.5 hours away and have played 4 times.  I am a shortish hitting early 60's 7 handicapper.  There is no way, I play from the back tees.  In the last week have played P No.2, so I have now played all the must plays in the Sandhills.


Dormie is a hard but playable course ... for me that definition means that I have a 'possibility' of parring the hole and have done so at least once in my 4 rounds.  I can do that only through very thoughtful approach shot play.  If a confident approach cannot be had, then I hit one club less and try to calculate the run out to miss just short of the green as close as possible from a line drawn from the middle of the green to the middle of the fairway landing zone.  Missing short side hole high or long is a disaster.  The run-up shot is accepted on most holes.


Holes 4 & 8 are hard holes for me. 


17 gets a good review on by the thread creator, but I do not like the 3rd shot for the short hitter.  The hole gives the big hitter too many advantages.


What do any of you think about the tee shot on 18?  Doesn't it become a lay-up for the better player?

I actually have more fun playing Mid Pines or Southern Pines, but will in the future play Dormie again.