[Carlyle Rood]

wind was always a major factor on both the old seaside and marshside nines,not much different than today.

Fazio removed HUNDREDS of trees from the property.  I am going to "go out on a limb" and suggest that their removal has affected the impact of wind.  

[BCrosby]

Seaside was always the most exposed of the SI courses. It was always about wind. Fazio did not introduce the notion. I have played it in 40 mph gales. Several times. There were times when it was hard to stand over a putt.

In fact there were never many trees on the course. The first 4 holes had very few. (On back to back days in 1988 I hit a driver short and a 5 iron over no. 3. Talk about wind.) No. 4 has always been totally exposed. The wind howled off the Intercoastal. There were virtually no trees on 7 or 8. Some on the left side of 9. The right side was exposed. Only no. 5 had trees on both sides of the fairway, as I recall. Seaside always meant wind.

I had hoped that for all the money Fazio collected from SI he would have enhanced shot values or heightened the poignancy of strategic choices or created new, interesting shot choices or all of those things. The kinds of things good architects do. Or if he wasn't up to that, at least rehabilitate some of the old Alison. For the millions he got paid, I certainly expected more than some eye-candy waste areas and new sea oats.

I don't enjoy criticizing Fazio. But there are so many terrific young architects out there looking for work. They bleed talent. They have energy, time and vision. And unlike Fazio, they think the history of their art has something to tell them. But guys like Fazio continue to corner the big projects and the big bucks and leave us with mediocre product. It's not the end of the world. It is, however, a cryin' shame.

Bob

 

[paul cowley]

....carlyle ,

i have lived here and played there since 76 ,the new and the old especially.....when the wind blew ,seaside and marshside were not the nines to play if you were not up for the challenge...maybe a little more wind today ,but the effect is more from the re-contouring differences than the removal of hundreds of trees.

...the old seaside two through eight were no pushovers in the wind.

[T_MacWood]

Carlyle
I've always been fond of elderly women playing cards...so I'll take your description as a compliment.

Whining and bitching aren't what I would call this thread, I prefer criticism. One of the reasons Colt & Alison's designs are enduring is due to the fact that they developed their craft at time when criticism was common place. Their work was critically reviewed by their peers and they reviewed the work of their peers. The process of analyzing others work and the knowledge that your own work is going to be criticially analyzed tends to elevate everyone IMO. It is unfortunate Fazio (and many others) haven't had the benefit of this exchange.

It appears to me you are simply paying lip service to Colt & Alison...you could care less what they left at Sea Island ("I like the course as is so who cares what exactly was here before"). IMO young architects could benefit from studying the great works of the past...unfortunately far too many have undergone modern "improvements."

[Carlyle Rood]

Seaside was always the most exposed of the SI courses. It was always about wind. Fazio did not introduce the notion. I have played it in 40 mph gales. Several times. There were times when it was hard to stand over a putt.

I never said that Fazio introduced the notion of wind.  I did say that he re-introduced it.

It's well chronicled that hundreds of trees were removed from the property during the renovation.  I think it's remarkable that many haven't recognized their absence, nor their contribution to screening wind previously.

[BCrosby]

As I said, the old Seaside 9 was a wind tunnel. Whatever trees were on the course, they did little to limit the wind there.

For Fazio to claim credit for taking out some trees and "restoring" the wind is like carrying coals to Newcastle and expecting the mayor to honor you with the keys to the city.

Bob

[Carlyle Rood]

It appears to me you are simply paying lip service to Colt & Alison...you could care less what they left at Sea Island ("I like the course as is so who cares what exactly was here before"). IMO young architects could benefit from studying the great works of the past...unfortunately far too many have undergone modern "improvements."

That's a lot of baloney.  I think I've been very fair and critical in my analysis.  I haven't recognized the same prudence in most of the other observations.

I've enjoyed playing the courses more since Tom Fazio and Rees Jones remodeled them.  I don't think my enjoyment disqualifies me from appreciating the works of Colt/Alison or Walter Travis; but, if that's how it works, then add Alister MacKenzie to my black list too because I really enjoyed playing Pasatiempo following Doak's work.

[Carlyle Rood]

As I said, the old Seaside 9 was a wind tunnel. Whatever trees were on the course, they did little to limit the wind there.

For Fazio to claim credit for taking out some trees and "restoring" the wind is like carrying coals to Newcastle and expecting the mayor to honor you with the keys to the city.

Seaside 9 was a wind tunnel.  Wind was only permitted to circulate where the trees permitted it.

Now in their absence, the wind has greater velocity and variety.  Colt & Alison recognized how important this wind circulation was to their design.  I commend Fazio for following their lead.

For the record, Fazio didn't solicit credit for restoring the wind.  I gave him credit, which he justly deserves.

[Carlyle Rood]

Carlyle
I've always been fond of elderly women playing cards...so I'll take your description as a compliment.

Confession: I really have no idea how to play canasta.    And, yes, take the comment with a grain of salt.

[Carlyle Rood]

Isn't the operative question "why does Fazio insist on introducing his own framing style onto a golf course done in another style"?

Did he introduce his own framing style, or did he embrace theirs?  (I apologize for the size of the image; but, I think the inconvenience is justified by the beauty of the setting.)

[T_MacWood]

Carlyle
And the answer is?

[Mike_Cirba]

Carlyle;

I seriously don't recall either Travis or Alison creating waste areas, particularly ones that look like Zen gardens, on any of their courses.

The closest I can think of might be Timber Point, where lots of sandy fill was brought in from the bay to stabilize the marsh, but the sandy areas on that course were just left wild, random, and untended.

[Sam Maryland]

I remember the Sea Island golf course from the old days back in the 1950s. I don't remember the golf architecture in detail obviously but I remember the aura of it. And I remember the old Cloisters hotel from that era too. Both the golf course and the hotel were simply lovely, every bit that wonderful old Georgia charm. The golf course was natural and lovely just as some of those on this board might imagine it would've been.

Completely redesigning the course and redoing the hotel makes basically no sense to me other than to say I do understand that both have always been commercial ventures, and PT Barnum was probably right when he said;

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public."

It's pretty hard to recreate the charm the Cloisters hotel and the Sea Island golf course used to have---they should have understood that better and basically left it with that same aura of a bygone era.

prophetic comments/observations there TEP...

SM

[TEPaul]

Sam Maryland:

Wow is this thread WIDE or what?  It's sort of a pain in the ass to read and observe!

But regarding your last post and what I said about the way Sea Island once was, the hotel and the golf courses; in my opinion it is some pretty tricky business if people with some kind of "renaissance" mentality want to recreate it. If you are going to truly appeal to the type of people who essentially were from and with that kind of aura or who really understand it and appreciate it, the deal is you basically can't miss a single beat but sort of counter-intuitively you pretty much need to do it all without looking like you tried too hard or that it was all too "studied", if you know what I mean. I don't believe you can get away with that kind of aura again by hiring some fancy New York designer/decorator or perhaps even a restoration golf archictect. That kind of thing back then was sort of like a total way of life; it was sort of like the whole thing and anything and everything to do with it was basically in their culture and soul, so to speak, and it always seemed like noone tried too hard and that may've been the ultimate point and the true beauty of it all. Some might even refer to that kind of thing or aura as "Shabby Chic". I think there are people today who can or believe they can somehow recreate the "chic" part of it but what so few truly understand is how to recreate and manage the "shabby" part of it. That whole aura, look and culture first emanated out of England centuries ago and they basically perfected it. And then it was transported pretty damn well to America sort of along with the culture of what became known over here as the "Wasps". Both over there and then over here, it was not just a studied creation and look though, it really was a culture---a mentality---a total way of life! That is precisely what Sea Island was back then and in spades!

And then regional uniqueness was hugely important to those people and that culture back then. Their New York and Pennsylvania and Massachussets places were uniquely different from their Eastern End Long Island and Maine and Vermont places and their Carolina and early Florida and particularly their Georgia places. Georgia and particularly those Georgia Sea Isles had a natural regional look and feel that was so unique and so cool. As Margaret Mitchell said with the title of her famous book it may be a world that is essentially gone with the wind.

But we on here are some pretty good historians and investigators and we can still find the vestiges of it and we can still drink it what it must have been like! 

[Sam Maryland]

I think "shabby chic" hits the nail right on the head...

...it wasn't broken (matter of fact it was perfect), but they felt compelled to fix it.

SM

[Mac Plumart]

Y'all are awesome and you might not even know it!!!

I am going to Sea Island on December 11th and 12th to play Seaside and Plantation.

I know the courses have been mixed and matched and tinkered and twisted over the years, so I was trying to get my arms around it.  I found this old thread that breaks it all down.  Very, very nice.  I particularly like Tom Paul's last few posts and his last few lines.

Getting into all the changes and adjustments, frankly, overwhelmed my pea-sized brain.  So, I decided on doing the following...

Simply play the courses, take mental notes on which holes I like and don't like without regard to trying to figure out who is responsible for it.  This will avoid biases and discover my true feelings.

Then I would love to come back on line and discuss which holes I liked, why, and figure out who is responsible for the design.  Thereby figuring out who, in my opinion, are the architects I enjoyed the most.

Again...great work guys!!!

[Carl Nichols]

Mac:
I was just there in September; look forward to your posts!

[cary lichtenstein]

Mac:

I played there many times. Don't bother with Plantation, it is ordinary. Play Seaside twice, you'll enjoy yourself more.

At this time of year, you might beg your way onto either of the 2 private courses there, Ocean Forest or I forgot the other one.

[Carl Nichols]

Mac:

I played there many times. Don't bother with Plantation, it is ordinary. Play Seaside twice, you'll enjoy yourself more.

At this time of year, you might beg your way onto either of the 2 private courses there, Ocean Forest or I forgot the other one.

Cary: 
I agree about Plantation; I much prefer the DLIII Retreat course (which I've heard may be shifting to members only). 

The other private Sea Island course is Frederica.  I've also heard good things about the recent work done at Brunswick (can't remember who did it, though).

[Kenny Baer]

I would second playing Seaside 2x. They are not comparable, it would be like staying at Pebble and playing Poppy Hills if Pebble and Poppy were the same price.
Seaside is well worth it and the front 9 is worth the price of admission on it's own..... Depending on the price. 

[Niall Hay]

So for golf at Sea Island there is the Seaside and then everything else. Heard good things about Ocean Forest but is there any way to get access there? What about Frederica?

“The best of the Sea Island’s resort courses, Seaside, is challenging, fast, and fun. Ocean Forest, a 1995 Rees Jones ultra-exclusive course is a stone’s throw from the Cloister. But Tom Fazio’s Frederica, which opened in 2005 on nearby St. Simon’s Island, is the pick.”

[Jim_Kennedy]

Travis, Colt & Alison, and Burbeck    Hugh Moore.    I don't think he's at the far left in the photo. 


Golfdom April 1930


Construction -  17th tee:

[Neil Regan]

"I have built 4 greens of my own design and 1 from the blue print of Colt and Allison."


Hugh Moore, 1930


Typo, or bad math ?
(Typo, or bad speller ? )


Can anyone post the Alison blueprints ?

[BCrosby]

I would like to see the C&A drawings as well. It has been many years, but I recall seeing copies hanging in The Lodge.


Bob

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()