[Tim Gavrich]

The debate between Bill Brightly and Pat Mucci in the Yale #9 thread made me wonder - is it plausible that Raynor could have intended for the front part of the green to be maintained at green height but never, or at least extremely seldom, pinned? The added height of the tee box might have made Raynor think that maintaining the front part at a shorter height than flatter Biarritz holes would somewhat negate the inevitably steeper angle of incidence of even a 1925 "stinger shot" first striking that front part.

I caught a few minutes of the Dunhill Links this past weekend and noticed that the very front of the green at the Road Hole could theoretically be pinned. Short of the big false front, it looks like there's enough flat area cut as green that a hole could be located there. Heck, there's lots of room just above that false-front, in which I don't think the R&A places the cup during the Open. Do they have far-front pins on that green during normal play?

Are there other greens out there with sections that could theoretically host a hole location, but for some reason, do not?

[Tom_Doak]

I caught a few minutes of the Dunhill Links this past weekend and noticed that the very front of the green at the Road Hole could theoretically be pinned. Short of the big false front, it looks like there's enough flat area cut as green that a hole could be located there. Heck, there's lots of room just above that false-front, in which I don't think the R&A places the cup during the Open. Do they have far-front pins on that green during normal play?

Are there other greens out there with sections that could theoretically host a hole location, but for some reason, do not?

Tim:


When I was in St. Andrews in the summer of 1982, Walter Woods extended the green of the Road Hole a good 30 feet forward so he could put holes down there some days and give the plateau a rest.  They were playing way more rounds back then -- the green fee was 15 pounds and you could start at 5:00 a.m. if you wanted to.  I caddied for one guy who can tell his friends forevermore that he "birdied the Road hole" ... [to a front pin].


Most of the hole locations that can be used but aren't, are due to discretion because they'd be too hard for members, rather than too easy.  But surely there are others.  Many of the Biarritz greens have been "restored" by making the front part putting surface, but at most clubs they only ever pin the front section for outings and on ladies' day.

[Bill Seitz]

Are there other greens out there with sections that could theoretically host a hole location, but for some reason, do not?

Kingsley has a couple holes with pinnable areas that you rarely if ever see pinned.  Three that come to mind are back left on #s 6, 7, and 13.  I think I've seen back left on seven once in a member event, and I didn't even know it existed prior to that.  Six maybe a couple times, and 13 only once unless specifically requested (and for that weekend, Dan Lucas put out a normal pin for those who didn't want to torture themselves).  I think they each provide a great test on occasion, but the greens are all strong enough that they don't really need tricked up pin locations to be good holes. 

My guess is that if a hole has a spot that's legitimately pinnable, play it enough times and you'll see a pin there eventually. 

[Sean Leary]

I played to a front pin on 14 at Pebble once, in the winter when the greens were slow....I was told it was very rare to put it there dur to the severe slope.

[Tom_Doak]

I forgot to mention that there are several hole locations at Old Macdonald that aren't used because Mr. Keiser thinks they're too challenging for retail golfers ... the two plateaus on #1, high left on #18, and the front of #8, most notably.  [There are others, too.]  The only time those have been used as far as I know are for the Renaissance Cup and for USGA events.

[Aaron Marks]

I was on Old MacDonald yesterday and wondered if those two plateaus on #1 ever saw a pin.  I especially liked the look of that back left area for a challenging hole location.  I'd read on CGA that #8 doesn't see a front position, and I expected it to me much more severe in person.  I three putted from the swale, so I guess it wouldn't have mattered which direction I was going from there...

[Tim Gavrich]

I forgot to mention that there are several hole locations at Old Macdonald that aren't used because Mr. Keiser thinks they're too challenging for retail golfers ... the two plateaus on #1, high left on #18, and the front of #8, most notably.  [There are others, too.]  The only time those have been used as far as I know are for the Renaissance Cup and for USGA events.

Tom--

Is that more or less in line with your original vision of how those greens would be pinned or, were you in Mr. Keiser's place, would you expose the "retail golfer" to those hole locations every so often? Or would you do as he does, and leave them more to higher-level competition use?

That's basically how it works at TOC, right? On a lot of greens, don't the hole locations used for the Open see almost no play during "normal" traffic times?

Unless they're really severe (have played TOC but haven't played OM; I recall TOC's hole locations being quite easy on the day I played), I would think it wouldn't be a strain on pace of play to use one or two of those tougher hole locations on occasion, as long as they were balanced out by a couple very "accessible" ones later in the round.

On courses with big/huge greens it seems there's a ton more pressure on the person in charge of setting the day's hole locations to arrange them such that as a set, those hole locations mix challenge and fun/adventure in a way that compliments the more static meat-and-potatoes of the course.

Do you typically spend a lot of time discussing hole location arrangement with the superintendent of a course you are designing? Have you ever found yourself playing one of your courses and being dissatisfied with the way the hole locations have been arranged for the day? It's probably not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but there have been certain times when I've played a course with big greens and have left wishing I'd seen more "interesting" (which does not necessarily mean "hard") hole locations used.

[Jon Cavalier]

As I noted in my tour and in the SHCC Green's thread, I am told that Somerset Hills never pins the 5th green in between the mounds on the right rear. Which makes sense, but is kind of a shame.

[Tom_Doak]

I would think it wouldn't be a strain on pace of play to use one or two of those tougher hole locations on occasion, as long as they were balanced out by a couple very "accessible" ones later in the round.

Obviously, I build my greens hoping all the various hole locations will get used on occasion [some more than others].  But I long ago gave up trying to micro-manage how superintendents do their setups.  We're lucky enough to have a bunch of great guys watching over our courses, many of whom were involved in their construction, so they have understood from the beginning how we'd like to see the greens used.  But, I understand that they've got clients, too.


I have had several embarrassing moments on my golf courses where the setup was not well done ... thankfully, none lately.  The worst was at High Pointe where once a staffer had cut the hole right at the top of the steep terrace on the 8th green ... zero feet from the edge.  I had to wait and watch a couple of groups in front of me make several attempts to hole out.

[Thomas Dai]

I caught a few minutes of the Dunhill Links this past weekend and noticed that the very front of the green at the Road Hole could theoretically be pinned. Short of the big false front, it looks like there's enough flat area cut as green that a hole could be located there. Heck, there's lots of room just above that false-front, in which I don't think the R&A places the cup during the Open. Do they have far-front pins on that green during normal play?

I've played TOC 17th with the pin at the front below the ridge line/false front Fortunately I hadn't travelled around the world to play TOC or I might have been disappointed with the pin on the day. Still it can't be in the same place all the time.


I imagine there are a couple of other TOC holes, like perhaps the 12th or the 16th, where the pin could be placed in front of the greens ridge line/false front and maybe a couple where a pin could be positioned 'over the back' as well (maybe the 12th?)


As to the pin position on the 17th during The Open, I recall that this year on one of the earlier days the pin on the 17th was just over the ridge line/false front. Not sure which day. I don't recall the pin being positioned that far forward before during The Open.


atb

[Buck Wolter]

Are there other greens out there with sections that could theoretically host a hole location, but for some reason, do not?

Kingsley has a couple holes with pinnable areas that you rarely if ever see pinned.  Three that come to mind are back left on #s 6, 7, and 13.  I think I've seen back left on seven once in a member event, and I didn't even know it existed prior to that.  Six maybe a couple times, and 13 only once unless specifically requested (and for that weekend, Dan Lucas put out a normal pin for those who didn't want to torture themselves).  I think they each provide a great test on occasion, but the greens are all strong enough that they don't really need tricked up pin locations to be good holes. 

My guess is that if a hole has a spot that's legitimately pinnable, play it enough times and you'll see a pin there eventually.

There was pin on the front left of 16 that the  Gross Club Champ  took a 10 on, 6 inches past the hole and you were chipping back up -- he played well besides that!

[Kalen Braley]

Almost the entire 18th green at Olympic!!      Too soon?
 

[Sven Nilsen]

I forgot to mention that there are several hole locations at Old Macdonald that aren't used because Mr. Keiser thinks they're too challenging for retail golfers ... the two plateaus on #1, high left on #18, and the front of #8, most notably.  [There are others, too.]  The only time those have been used as far as I know are for the Renaissance Cup and for USGA events.

The front left plateau on 1 at Old Mac is used just about every 3rd day.

The also use the left side on 6 and high right on 16 from time to time.

[Tom_Doak]

I forgot to mention that there are several hole locations at Old Macdonald that aren't used because Mr. Keiser thinks they're too challenging for retail golfers ... the two plateaus on #1, high left on #18, and the front of #8, most notably.  [There are others, too.]  The only time those have been used as far as I know are for the Renaissance Cup and for USGA events.

The front left plateau on 1 at Old Mac is used just about every 3rd day.

The also use the left side on 6 and high right on 16 from time to time.

Sven:


Good to hear.  I'm surprised on #1, because to me the back right plateau is less severe than the left-hand one.  On the left, if you go over the green you're in big trouble.

[JBovay]

When I was in St. Andrews in the summer of 1982, Walter Woods extended the green of the Road Hole a good 30 feet forward so he could put holes down there some days and give the plateau a rest. 

Many of the Biarritz greens have been "restored" by making the front part putting surface, but at most clubs they only ever pin the front section for outings and on ladies' day.

Granted, #4 at Yale is a liberal interpretation of the Road Hole. But I've been wondering why it wasn't designed with two tiers and instead with an enormous false front (now, and probably always maintained as fairway). This helps clear that up.


In 8 rounds at Yale over the last year, I haven't seen the pin on 9 anywhere BUT the front. I think all of these rounds have been Fridays through Sundays, and not on club or any other competition days.

I imagine there are a couple of other TOC holes, like perhaps the 12th or the 16th, where the pin could be placed in front of the greens ridge line/false front and maybe a couple where a pin could be positioned 'over the back' as well (maybe the 12th?)
atb

In my one round at TOC, the pin on 12 was short of the false front. It was a surprisingly tough pin position: very hard to get it close without a ton of spin.

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