[Cliff Hamm]

Gil Hanse redesigned the 12th in order to make it more difficult.  I believe it is now playing to 4.5+ strokes. It is now over 500 yards with a principal's nose bunker in the fairway. It also has a bank which I would guess is about 340 yard  out. On Thursday I watched Dustin Johnson bomb one only to end up in the rough toward the bottom of the bank.



Justin Thomas  played down the 13th. It requires a drive over trees to a somewhat narrow landing zone. It is also dangerous and from commentary players coming up the 13th were none too happy. Should this be OB?


Here is an article about the changes from golf digest:


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/some-players-are-pretty-upset-with-tpc-bostons-new-12th-hole


 Any comments?

[noonan]

Internal OB is just wrong

[Cliff Hamm]

 I typically agree. But is it different when one is not trying to protect the integrity of the hole, but rather keep players safe?

[Mike Sweeney]

People make mistakes, including fancy architects on sub-par property.


Make it OB, and then fix the design. Or we could have a "Tournament Ball" that keeps drives to 270 max yards. I have no interest in seeing:

• People get hit,
• Play delayed even more....

I credit Justin Thomas for finding an optimal (alternative) playing corridor.

[BHoover]

This doesn't bother me in the least.

[Pete_Pittock]

I don't know how many players opted to play to the 13th fairway. Two possible solutions would be to narrow the 13th fairway if the "landing zone" off the 12th tee does not coincide with it's LZ. Another solution would be to toughen the left side of the 12th green surround. It looked like the 12th green is wide open from that approach angle, especially with the hole locations chosen. They could also afford to lose one tree from the stand guarding an approach from the left rough.

[Matt_Cohn]

I don't know how many players opted to play to the 13th fairway.

Seven, they said.

[MClutterbuck]

Can´t that be solved relatively easy with some well placed trees close to the tees and a bunker on 13 that is nasty to play out of in the direction of 12 green?


I liked the strategic design of 12, although i did not see much of it. It produced plenty of bogeys and some very nice birdies. A player I followed in particular hit the narrow, long left section with his drive all 4 days.

[Brad Tufts]

On a course where the top players make 6+ birdies a round...I think a 4.5 half-par makes sense.


Also, a forced long-iron for many of these guys is an approach from 220-250, so why isn't this acceptable?

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

How many millions of dollars has gone into the course after it opened? There has been at least two substantial renovations, the 18th green has been altered three or four times and now the entire 12th was rebuilt?

[Tom_Doak]

I have never been to the TPC at Boston.  But was there anything wrong with the previous version of the hole?


Seems like they forgot the old rule about if it ain't broke, over sensitivity to criticism that it was a bomber's course.

[Peter Pallotta]

We had a 3 or 4 page thread on tinkering, and my definition of the word seemed different than that of most others. Folks kept mentioning Ross-Pinehurst and Fownes and cutting back trees on classic courses by the old dead greats. But for me, *this* is where the heart of the tinkering question lay -- not in the safe/theoretical Golden Age past but in the rationales and decisions regarding today's courses, and tinkering by today's architects.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Ok. We have a pretty learned group here.  Is the 12th at TPC Boston a great hole, a good hole, a so-so hole or a bad hole?


We have a central hazard forcing a choice.  So far so good, right?


The short bunker on the left seems pretty irrelevant to the pros because they can carry it with almost anything to land in  a rectangle short of the central bunker at the end of the fairway that seems to be about 45 yards wide and 40 yards long. 


You are telling me the pros can't hit the ball into the rectangle every single time, which forces (gasp!) a 4-6 iron approach??


If they want to get closer, yes, they can run out of real estate down the left side.  Is it a tenet of "good' design that they should be able to hit a straight drive an endless distance? 


If they choose to go left of that central hazard, the fairway appears to be 20-25 yards wide, which seems ample for players of their ability taking a risk to get the reward of the shortest possible approach.


I think a tree that blocks the view of the 13th fairway is probably in order for sure to prevent players taking that line. 


I haven't played it or walked or (or even seen it on TV), but I don't see anything here that doesn't make some sense architecturally. 


Would love to hear other specific opinions about what this hole gets right or wrong.

[Tim Gavrich]

I didn't study the hole too closely but from what I saw, it looks like a small change would be wise to make before a huge (and expensive) one.


I think the "Lobster Pots" might just be a touch too big. Make the left one 30% smaller and see how next year's event plays out. If that alley to the left of the Pots is just a touch bigger, then the players may go for that spot more often.


I don't have a problem with a couple guys feeling compelled to go down 13 fairway, assuming the group approaching is given fair warning.

[JBovay]

I walked the back nine at TPC Boston a few years ago, and found it dull and unmemorable until the 16th hole. It's good that the Tour and Hanse/Wagner have created something new that stimulates discussion of architecture and strategy.


I find it interesting that nobody I heard on TV this week, nor anyone on this forum, has mentioned how the strategy of Jordan Spieth (and, I presume, others) on the 16th at St. Andrews in 2015 was to hit it left, over the rough, into the 3rd fairway. What's the difference here?


(I agree with Tim, the group coming down 13 at TPC Boston needs to be given fair warning if someone's aiming their direction.)

[Cliff Hamm]

 It must be contagious. Watching the Walker Cup and players once again playingdown a different fairway.   As much as I hate interior OT, I would also hate to see trees planted.

[Greg Stebbins]

It must be contagious. Watching the Walker Cup and players once again playingdown a different fairway.   As much as I hate interior OT, I would also hate to see trees planted.

We are seeing the result of course management by way of statistical analysis.  Scott Fawcett and others who are crunching the numbers are showing that your best bet is to avoid lost shot hazards at all costs.  On the 12th at TPC Boston those bunkers are probably a .8 shot penalty.  The barranca on 17 LACC North is probably closer to a full shot.  Playing down the opposite fairway in these cases eliminates the lost shot hazard and gives the guys with world class short games a very good chance of making par.


It will be interesting to see if this style of course management becomes widely accepted.  Holes designed to give a player an advantage by flirting with the hazard (18 at TPC sawgrass?) might lose their strategic interest if players don't feel there is anything to be gained statistically. 

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