PASATIEMPO

[Patrick_Mucci]

The green speeds at any given time can make certain holes at Pasatiempo almost unplayable.  That would be my only critique of the course.  Holes like #8, 11, 16, and 18 can be incredibly treacherous when the greens are fast.  Much of the fun of playing Pasatiempo are the wonderful green complexes,but there is nothing enjoyable about having putts roll off the green.

Agree. In theory, if they want to keep green speeds fast, could they rebuild those greens (at least #8 and #18 and maybe #9) to have similar contours, but less grade/slope?


Astavrides,

That shouldn't be a criticism of the course, that should be a criticism of modern day maintenance practices.

Haven't we seen WFW, PV and Merion disfigured in order to accommodate higher green speeds.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

I've heard good things about The Meadow Club and the Cal Club and had planned to visit in Oct/Nov, but those plans have fallen through.

Unfortunately, I played the Valley Club so long ago that I remember very little of it.

I'm fascinated by AM's work and especially his bunkering

He inserted so many of his bunkers, seamlessly, into the natural terrain as opposed to forcing them onto the land



Pat, not to get this thread off course, but as you play the Good Doctor's courses, don't forget Meadow Club--across the Golden Gate Bridge.  I played it a few years ago--and just played it again 3 times recently.  Mike DeVries did a lot of restoration there--and did a very good job.  It is also a very enjoyable, 365-day-a-year course.  Maybe not quite of the caliber of Passy, but very good.

[Keith Grande]

Pat, glad you were able to get there and appreciate it.
 
I agree Pasa is an understated gem.  The use of natural surrounds incorporated within the course is one to be studied.
 
Also, finishing with a par 3 is a testament to the terrain used to route the course, rather than forcing the routing on the terrain.

[Jim Hoak]

Pat, hope you will play the Meadow Club at some point--and the Valley Club as it's been restored and regrassed.  I think Pasatiempo, Valley and Meadow are all 3 great courses--showing off whom I consider the greatest golf architect ever.  And showing his work with his associate, Robert Hunter.
I would love your opinion of how the 3 rate against each other.  Any others played all 3 in, say, the last 2 years?  How do you rate them against each other?  No fair to comment if it's been more than 2-3 years, as they have all 3 been improved by light, but good, work.

[Kalen Braley]

Since I played it a few years back at KP, I've always felt the back 9 at Pasa is a master class in how to route a course.....
I especially loved how many of the tees and greens and tees all come together near the "10 green, 11 tee, 12 green, 13 tee, 16 green, and 17 tee"  interchange...just brilliant
 

[Cliff Hamm]

My favorite pic at Pastiempo, I think near the 14th tee...

[Sean Ogle]

I played Pasa for the first time in June - and I was totally taken by surprise. I knew it'd be good, but it was much better than I'd expected. There was no one on the course, and overall it was in fantastic shape (aside from the range which was pretty ugly).


Green complex on 16 might be the best I've ever played.

[Josh Tarble]

I played Pasa for the first time in June - and I was totally taken by surprise. I knew it'd be good, but it was much better than I'd expected. There was no one on the course, and overall it was in fantastic shape (aside from the range which was pretty ugly).


Green complex on 16 might be the best I've ever played.

Sean,
I too played it recently and had about the same reaction as you.  Absolutely loved it.


I do wonder about 16 though.  I know it gets all of the attention, but I found it almost over the top.  I thought the greens on 4, 5, 7, 12, 13 were all better complexes than 16.  But that's half the beauty of Pasa, you could pick any single green complex and say it was your favorite and it would be defensible.


After looking back, I think you could even make the case for 17.

[Bill_McBride]

Pat, hope you will play the Meadow Club at some point--and the Valley Club as it's been restored and regrassed.  I think Pasatiempo, Valley and Meadow are all 3 great courses--showing off whom I consider the greatest golf architect ever.  And showing his work with his associate, Robert Hunter.
I would love your opinion of how the 3 rate against each other.  Any others played all 3 in, say, the last 2 years?  How do you rate them against each other?  No fair to comment if it's been more than 2-3 years, as they have all 3 been improved by light, but good, work.

I last played the Meadow Club more than three years ago but after the excellent work Mike DeVries did.


I have played Pasatiempo many times but not since Tom Doak and Jim Urbina changed the back of the 11th green.  (Side note: why not just slow down the greens to ~9?).  I have seen the earlier work such as 10.


I have played the Valley Club regularly for many years including twice this last February.  Great work to conserve water and greatly expand the closely mown areas. 


Here are my thoughts:


I would objectively rank the three Pasatiempo 1, Valley 2, Meadow 3.   I think Pasa has the most dramatic holes and a wonderful back nine.  The other two are very close, intimate in great settings and both more an experience of an 18 hole flow rather than a collection of holes that includes some gems. 


Pasatiempo gets points off because of the residences encircling the course, too closely in some places.  Valley has a handful, the Meadow is a pristine routing. 


Meadow has some back and forth parallel holes on the second nine, mostly surrounded by the front nine in a semi-Muirfield routing. 


All three have brilliant greens that range from "be very cautious about being above the hole" to "terrifying."   Pasatiempo's 8th and 16th are probably the most frightening of the three sets.


All in all, this is a very close thing.   If anything, the Meadow Club is very underrated. 


I'd love to play any on a regular basis. 

[Bill Brightly]

Hole 16

[David Stamm]

Is the back at Pasatiempo the best 9 holes there is?  If not what courses have a better 9?

I also agree that 6-7-8 kind of bring down the course a bit (from a very lofty perch) 6 especially being the lone par 5 on the front. 

Not sure if you meant it differently,  but 9 is a par 5.

[David Stamm]

Pat, did you get the opportunity to interface with the kick plate short right of the green on 2? Great fun.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, did you get the opportunity to interface with the kick plate short right of the green on 2? Great fun.


David,

I didn't.

The hole was cut far left and I hit a 5-iron to the center of the green, but two other golfers used the right side kick plate to their advantage.

A few greens had kick plates that could help or hurt the golfer.

They make playing Pasatiempo a uniquely fun experience.

[Josh Tarble]

Is the back at Pasatiempo the best 9 holes there is?  If not what courses have a better 9?

I also agree that 6-7-8 kind of bring down the course a bit (from a very lofty perch) 6 especially being the lone par 5 on the front. 

Not sure if you meant it differently,  but 9 is a par 5.

You're right...forgot about 9.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lost in this photo are the tiers in the green, with significant elevation changes between those tiers.
 
The hole was located on the top tier on the day this photo was taken.
 
There's a distinct fear of going long.
 
I hit to the middle tier (not intentionally) and was left with a very challenging putt, which I left 6' short.  Made the next one.
 
Hitting to a tier above the tier where the hole is cut almost certainly guarantees a 3 putt, or more.
 
It's a massive green and the right side bunker is massive and very deep.
 
The left side bunker is no bargain, but golfers, almost universally, have to traverse the deep right side bunker.

Hole 16

[Mark Provenzano]

Just a tip that a member gave me for your first time at Pasa. After you park, walk down to the 18th green and take a good look. What you see from the tee will fool you. Then walk across the road and past the halfway house to the 9th green and do the same. The pin location may influence where you try to place your second shot; you don't want to be hitting blind into this green.

(I also always peek at 17 green when walking up 10 and check out the 16th green before teeing off on 11 as well.)

[Jason Topp]

Just a tip that a member gave me for your first time at Pasa. After you park, walk down to the 18th green and take a good look. What you see from the tee will fool you. Then walk across the road and past the halfway house to the 9th green and do the same. The pin location may influence where you try to place your second shot; you don't want to be hitting blind into this green.

(I also always peek at 17 green when walking up 10 and check out the 16th green before teeing off on 11 as well.)

Is 18 uphill?   I have found the bunkers short regularly.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,
 
# 18 green is downhill, # 9 green is uphill

[Jason Topp]

Jason,
 
# 18 green is downhill, # 9 green is uphill

That is what it looks like to me from the tee but I have found the hole to play longer than I expect so I wondered if that was the surprise.

[Jim Hoak]

On the issue of green slopes and green speeds, did anyone catch the comment from Peter Kostis yesterday with regard to the Plainfield CC greens?  He said that when they were built by Donald Ross they had 5 stimps and they were wonderful.  Today at 11-12, they are absurd.  Applies to Pasatiempo?

[Patrick_Mucci]

On the issue of green slopes and green speeds, did anyone catch the comment from Peter Kostis yesterday with regard to the Plainfield CC greens?  He said that when they were built by Donald Ross they had 5 stimps and they were wonderful.  Today at 11-12, they are absurd.  Applies to Pasatiempo?

Jim,

For many decades, Plainfield had a famous/infamous superintendent, "Red" who kept the greens firm and fast and the rough lush and thick.

Playing in a competition at Plainfield was always a stern test.

In general, Pasatiempo's greens are more steeply sloped than Plainfields.

There is a speed above which a course transitions from being a reasonable competitive test to.......... goofy.

Clubs have to be vigilant and prudent in determining their appropriate green speeds.

On # 11, one of my playing companions hit his third shot a little strong, past the hole and into the upper slope.
We watched as the ball went up the back slope and made a rainbow like turn and in agonizing fashion began rolling back toward the hole, powered only by gravity, until it ended up not far from the hole.

Had his ball gone a little further, into the rough behind the green, there was no way that he could keep that recovery within 20 feet of the hole, at best, unless he tried to play the shot into the rough above and to the left of the pin, but, if that didn't work, it was deja vu all over again.

Reason has to prevail when it comes to green speeds.