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Matthew Hunt

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Ed, would your rating for RCD 12 change if it was a par 4.

Ed Tilley

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Matthew,

I like no. 12 at RCD. It's nice to have a half par hole which is slightly easier than par rather than the other way round - 15 is a harder hole and it's a par 4. I think it fits in very nicely at RCD but, as a stand alone hole, 12 at Portrush is better.

Ed

Brad Tufts

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#10s:  RCD has a pretty par three nestled in the grand amphitheater of the surrounding dunes.  It is also one of the oldest remaining holes at RCD that still is in its generallly original form.  A pretty hole, its setting being its most important feature.  #10 at Portrush is another shortish par five, challenged by fairway bunkers in the crook of the turn, and several drop-offs around the green.  Two decent holes, but nothing spectacular.  RCD 9-8.

#11s:  RCD plays over the huge hill to a blind fairway, and the entire hole slopes right to left.  The drive is intimidating, and very unique, although the approach is straightforward unless to a right pin.  At Portrush, there is an attractive par three that plays harder than it looks.  Slight misses are severely penalized.  This hole is nice to look at in the same way at RCD #10.  Again, two decent holes, but nothing spectacular.  Portrush 9-8.

#12s:  RCD #12 is a benign par five with a fairway that slowly dips to a broad, flat green, but flanked by bunkers short left and right.  At Portush, twelve is a hard hole that drives into the wind, with many fun fairway undulations and a small push-up green.  These two will never make a calendar either, but 12 at Portrush is a stronger hole. Portrush 10-9.

RCD is ahead 110-106.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Ed Tilley

  • Karma: +0/-0
RCD 13-15

13






14




15





Portrush 13-15

13




14






15





Both 13th holes are real highlights. Portrush’s 13th would almost be at home at RCD. A drive up and over a large dune reveals a glorious view as you reach the top. The approach is downhill to an extremely attractively sited green. A real gem. RCD’s 13th winds its way right through a gorse flanked valley. The drive is tight. Long and left gives you a view of the green. You can’t see it, but there is plenty of room right and no future for a ball that goes left. Two superb holes but Portrush shades it 10-9.

RCD’s 14th is a solid long par 3. With almost a heathland feel it is, in common with a lot of holes at RCD, a tough par. Portrush’s 14th is an all world long par 3. A terrifying tee shot with a drop off to the right that has to be seen to be believed. Anything left is safe but a difficult up and down. There is a fabulous view to the right over the Valley course, a real gem in its own right. Portrush 10-8

Portrush’s 15th hole seems a bit contrived – a way to get from the 14th green to the lower ground and the final holes. A straight hole over the brow of a hill that drops sharply to a nicely contoured green, this is probably the weakest hole on the course. RCD’s `15th, by contrast, is a beautiful monster. The drive is to a wide uphill fairway, with the mountains dominating the background. The second is long over broken ground to a green that repels any shot that is not purely struck. A harder hole than the par 5 12th, anyone recording a 4 here should be very satisfied.  RCD 10-8.

Score with 3 to play. RCD 142, Portrush 140
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 12:04:00 PM by Ed Tilley »

Ed Tilley

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RCD 16-18

16


17






18






Portrush 16-18

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17




18





Portrush’s 16th starts the section on the flatter part of the property. A mid length par 4 that doglegs sharply to the right, the strength of the hole is again the green site with a sharp drop off to the left. RCD’s ‘new’ 16th is a vast improvement on the old, slightly odd hole. A very, attractive hole, it is driveable under certain conditions. The green is a strength, sloping away from the golfer. A 50 yard pitch to a front left pin position can be next to impossible. RCD 10-9

Portrush’s 17th is dominated by the massive bunker to the right of the fairway. This is reminiscent of the himilaya bunker at St. Enodoc and should be avoided. The second part of this par 5 is on very flat ground and the green complex is perhaps the least interesting on the course. RCD’s 17th attracts much criticism, mainly for the pond some 280-300 yards off the tee. The green complex is excellent, sitting at the top of a rise but the hole is very much on the poorer part of the property. Portrush 10-9.

Two difficult and well bunkered holes finish the courses. Portrush’s 18th is a long par 4 which requires 2 well struck shots. Whilst hard, it is not an attractive hole running alongside a busy road. RCD’s 18th occupies relatively flat terrain but has almost 20 bunkers. A long par 5, the green is superb, being raised and difficult to hit with anything other than a short iron. RCD 10-9.

The final score

RCD 171, Portrush 168

Front nine - RCD 87, Portrush 83
Back nine - Portrush 85, RCD 84



Brad Tufts

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And down the stretch they come:

#13s:  RCD's thirteen is a brilliant hole routed through a valley in the gorse-covered dunes.  The shaggy bunker edges and the gorse bordering the hole effectively narrow the safe playing area.  The green is larger than it looks, and is surrounded by a good amount of fairway and short game space.  Portrush's par four thirteenth plays over the highest point of the course, and offers one of its best views from the fairway past the green to the ocean.  Another good hole with two fun shots.  Tie! 10-10.

#14s:  RCD has a good par three, the furthest point from the clubhouse.  The entire green slopes from right to left, the front part severely into guarding bunkers.  The hole looks relatively benign, but this is far from the truth.  At Portrush, Calamity is simply one of the best and most challenging par threes in the world.  The player stands on the tee thinking the entire course is built around this one shot.  Portrush 10-8.

#15s:  The fifteenth at RCD is a brutal par four of over 450 yards, made even longer periodically by being played dead into the wind.  The tee shot is semi-blind up a rise, and the second is to a broad green on the far side of broken ground.  An underrated hole, 15 is played by most players as a par 5.  At Portrush, the 15th is a fun hole with an awkward second.  Strangely, layup shots and driver bombs seem to congregate in the same location in the rough on the left side of the fairway at the bottom of the slope.  The green here feels too large to fit the inevitable short approach.  It's not horrible by any stretch, but more of a filler between Calamity and the finish.  RCD 10-8.

#16s:  RCD's sixteenth is the drivable par four on the course, and unfortunately is a bit awkward at 260 yards from the visitor tees.  From there, the shot is almost like a long par three, but from the fairway, the green is very small and sloped, and surrounded by drop-offs.  A fun hole that fulfills the one type of hole lacking to this point.  At Portrush, the par four sixteenth is the first flat hole, and the approach is the star shot.  The hole narrows due to bordering whin-covered mounds that obscure much of the green.  RCD 9-8.

#17s:  The much-reviled #17 at RCD is a long par four down to the pond (which has been in evidence since the very early 1900s b.t.w.), then rising to the large undulating green.  Not a stunner, but the pond is really not in play for most, and the green has its wide bowl shape.  At Portrush, the par five seventeenth is focused on the "Big Bertha" bunker off to the right of the fairway.  Mounds to the left protect the eighteenth green, and also hide the left half of the fairway, pushing shots toward BB.  The second and third shots are probably the least interesting on the course, as they are dead flat, and the green is an extension of the fairway.  Portrush 9-8.

#18s:  RCD's 18th is a bit of a slog, but not surprising as both courses finish on the flattest parts of their respective land.  The par five at RCD is long and straight, slowly rising and splitting almost two dozen bunkers on the way.  The green is interesting however, as it is pushed up attractively about 4-5 from its surroundings.  The finisher at Portrush is long, a converted par five that plays 450 yards today.  The hole is dead flat, has 8-10 flanking bunkers, and the green is large and flat as well.  Most American courses save the best for last, but many Irish courses keep the best land for the middle and the meat of the match.  I like the Irish version better.  RCD 9-8.

Final Score:  RCD wins 164-159.

Have I proven anything?  My score is near identical to Ed's (though I gave more 8s), and seems to reflect the general prevailing opinion.

I tried not to be biased by my sunny round at RP, and my overcast 14 holes at RCD, before the 50 mph soak-you-to-the-bone maelstrom we played into on holes 15-18.  I would love another crack at both!     
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Matthew Hunt

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Great posts Ed, I am intrested to know why you would put RCD's 16th ahead of its 13th.

Bill_McBride

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Ed, thanks for the great photos of both courses.  I saw Portrush from the Valley course last fall and it looked pretty awesome up above.  We had drinks at the main clubhouse after our round and I agree the holes near the clubhouse are not too inspiring.  (We weren't able to get on the Dunluce.  :-\)

I didn't play Newcastle but was at the Walker Cup matches and saw how its supposed to be played!  The youngsters were amazing on both sides, both in length and finesse.  The first hole is 550 yards or so, Colt Knost hit an iron to 5' for eagle!

The middle photo of the 18th appears to be about 250 yards from home, the approximate spot from where Jonathan Moore hit the match winning shot, a 4 iron stinger that landed some 50 yards in front and ran up to 4' for an eagle.  I was about 15 feet behind him and couldn't really see much, but his teammates who were off to the side starting jumping up and down like lunatics, it was such a great shot under the circumstances.  8)  This came after a discouraging 3 putt at #17, so you can imagine how thrilled young Jonathan was.

Thanks for all your effort putting this comparative study together!

Matthew Hunt

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I didn't play Newcastle but was at the Walker Cup matches and saw how its supposed to be played!  The youngsters were amazing on both sides, both in length and finesse.  The first hole is 550 yards or so, Colt Knost hit an iron to 5' for eagle!



In the final day singles in the group I was raking bunkers for, the American hit a 8-iron into the 1st green it was just silly!

Brian_Sleeman

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Thanks for the ride...those are some incredible photographs.

If there's a place that calls out to me more than RCD, I don't know what it is.  I can't wait to make that trip - from the photos alone I already want to move there.

Andrew Mitchell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ed & Brad

Thanks for your efforts on this very illuminating thread.
2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
I played RP and RCD back in October and preferred Portrush, but that's just me, and I have no quarrel with those who lean the other way. No matter how you break it down, these are two of the twenty top ten courses in the world  ;).

Fun thread. Thanks, Ed.

Larry_Keltto

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This is the first time I've seen a photo of the completed new 16th at RCD. From the photo, I agree with you -- it's a big improvement over the old 16th. The former 16-17 combo was a big letdown for me, but if 16 is now a solid hole, I think my impression of the back nine as a whole might be greatly elevated. But I'll have to make a return trip to be certain. ;D

Bill_McBride

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Larry, #16 was the most fun hole to watch on the back nine.  We were allowed to sit (this was during the Walker Cup matches) just left and short of the green, where we saw a variety of delicate pitches to that falling away, slippery green, as well as some sporty recoveries from behind.  There's not another par 4 on the course that is so tantalizing from the tee!

Ed Tilley

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Great posts Ed, I am intrested to know why you would put RCD's 16th ahead of its 13th.

Matthew,

I don't. I'm not scoring each hole out of 10, I'm scoring it like a boxing match hole by hole. 10-10 for a tie, 10-9 for a win, 10-8 for a 'knockdown', i.e. a big win. I'm a real fan of the 13th at RCD, as I am of the new 16th, but I think 13 at Portrush is one of the best holes on the course and just beats the 13th at RCD. Just like the 4th holes, it's 2 great holes going head to head.

Ed

Sean Leary

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Larry, #16 was the most fun hole to watch on the back nine.  We were allowed to sit (this was during the Walker Cup matches) just left and short of the green, where we saw a variety of delicate pitches to that falling away, slippery green, as well as some sporty recoveries from behind.  There's not another par 4 on the course that is so tantalizing from the tee!

I liked 16 as well.  I do feel like it was a modern feeling hole, something that a Doak or C and C might do.....

While 18 at Portrush is rather bland, I felt like I could picture an Open Championship being played there, with a stands surrounding the second half of the hole.

I liked RCD beter, but I thought the greens at RP were far more interesting as a whole.....

Bill Gayne

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Excellent Thread. I think this thread really proves that when you evaluate two courses of such a high level it's really splitting hairs as to which one is better. I've played both courses and I would split a hair that Portrush is better because I thought the Portrush greens are the best in all of Ireland.

Ed Tilley

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I was looking at this thread recently and a couple of questions occurred to me:

1. The main criticism of RCD is a "weak finish", a criticism that is not really levelled at Portrush for instance. I have only just realised that the scores on my "Battle of Ulster" were level after 14 holes yet RCD won by 3 points. Is the finish at RCD unfairly criticised - i.e. if the 4 holes were on another course would they be treated the same? Is the weakness of the finish just relative to the rest of the course, and is therefore stressed too much?

2. Will the proposed changes to Portrush make any difference to the result?

Martin Toal

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I was looking at this thread recently and a couple of questions occurred to me:

1. The main criticism of RCD is a "weak finish", a criticism that is not really levelled at Portrush for instance. I have only just realised that the scores on my "Battle of Ulster" were level after 14 holes yet RCD won by 3 points. Is the finish at RCD unfairly criticised - i.e. if the 4 holes were on another course would they be treated the same? Is the weakness of the finish just relative to the rest of the course, and is therefore stressed too much?

2. Will the proposed changes to Portrush make any difference to the result?

I think RCD 18th is a fine hole, it just pales a bit compared to some of the world class holes that precede it. I haven't played the 16th in years since it was a shorter par 4, and 17th is a bit of an oddity with the pond in the fairway. If the finish at RCD is a bit less dramatic and less tough than earlier holes, many are probably ready for a breather.

Imagine a fantasy composite course between RCD and RP, featuring the best of both. That would be a heck of a course. Pity they are 90 miles apart.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 05:29:10 AM by Martin Toal »

Thomas Dai

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A thread enquiring where to play if you have one day in Northen Ireland got me wondering which of the two biggies, RCD or RP-Dunluce, is superior.


Having played them both a couple of times in competitions in the last year and writing generally rather than getting into the specifics about each individual hole, I would say that RCD is more challenging than RP from tee to green but that the green complexes are probably a bit more superior at RP. Mind you, if the green complexes at RCD were revised to be more akin to those at RP, then RCD, which from tee to green is already pretty damn brutal, would be just a monster.


Having discussed this with my regular golfing travelling campanions we all came to the same conclusion, that if we played all our competitive individual golf at RCD our handicaps would be a couple of shots higher than if playing an equal amount at RP.


Am I being fair in my assessment?


Two fab courses though. I look forward to playing them both again (plus the Valley and the Annesley as well).


Atb




Sam Krume

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RCD and RP are both truly great great courses. As has been said before on here, the green sites at RP are really some of the best there are and better than RCD in general IMO but when you add everything up RCD beats RP. I used to favour RP as my fav but since returning back to play RCD(this time without a drunk caddy hiding from his wife!!) I feel that RCD has now usurped RP as my top course in UK. 

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