Redan and Gibralter

[James Bennett]

I have seen the original Redan at North Berwick, haved played a Flynn version of such a hole at Huntingdon Valley (A3 - the bunker shot is easy from left of the green!) but have never seen a Macdonald/Raynor/Banks version (the 'template').  I have played Gibralter at Moortown in Leeds.

My question is - are there any real differences between what we often call a redan type hole and Gibralter?  There may be differences with the original Redan.

The Redan at North Berwick.  What struck me was the incredible movement in the ground.  Play is across fronting bunkers set into a hill perhaps 15 yards short of the green.  Beyond the hill is a blind valley, perhaps 10 feet deep with perhaps 25 degree downslope then upslope to the green.  The right hand side falls away quickly, with three bunkers set perhaps 20 feet below the green.  The left hand side is protected by a deep bunker (see the older photo).  The green is blind from the tee, and falls away from front right to back left.  The tee shot is uphill, slightly.

A google aerial of the hole.  The tee is on the left, the greenside bunkers and valley are apparent in the photo.


The Redan bunker - an old photo.


Sorry, no pictures of North Berwick West #15 (redan) - the camera wasn't working that day.  Someone might post one.

Gibralter.  Similar length (about 190 yards) slightly uphill, but more of an opening on the right, and a small visible landing area for a ground-game shot.  The bunkers on the right are set just above green height, although the left bunker is set below the green and quite deep.  The green doesn't fall away at the back but has a little movement from right to left, particularly on the right half of the green.

A google aerial, playing from the left to right.


The view from the tee, looking east into the early morning October sun.


A view of the left hand bunker.


Wayne Morrison posted this picture of the Philadelphia CC #7 hole - a Flynn Redan style hole.  With a little bit of short grass between the green and bunkers, and a slight pruning of the rh edge of the fronting bunker, we are close to Gibralter, IMO.


And here is Flynn's A-3 at Huntingdon Valley, with high ground on the right.


Any comments

James B

[Tom_Doak]

The Gibraltar green is terraced up at the back right so that you can put a pin up in that corner, and the ball will stay up there, bringing the bunkers on the right side of the green into play.  In that sense, it's a more difficult hole than the Redan.

On the other hand, the back line of the green at Gibraltar does not run away from you at a 45 degree angle, so it is very difficult to put yourself in trouble at the back (other than giving yourself a downhill putt).  In that sense it is much easier than the Redan.

Dr. MacKenzie wrote that he had not yet seen the Redan when he built the hole at Moortown in 1908.

[James Bennett]

To my eye, the Redan appears to be a more heavily protected green, with fronting bunkers protecting its ramparts.  This is in keeping with its 'fortress' style.

Are there any Gibralter copies out there, that have been labelled as such?

James B

[Sean_A]

James


This is an interesting, if short thread.  Most of the time when people speak of Redans, a Gibraltar is the far more appropriate description.  Removing the blindness the is a major difference between the two holes.  More than that though, Gibs are quite a bit more receptive to the aerial shot. Now, I couldn't say if Dr Mac's Gib is the original, but its hard to imagine another early hole quite like it due to all the bunkering.  Interestingly, Swinley's 4th is very similar to Gib...and we know Colt saw Dr Mac plans when he visited Leeds.  Is the similarity of the holes (and other Colt 3s) a mere coincidence?


Ciao 

[Adam Lawrence]

James


This is an interesting, if short thread.  Most of the time when people speak of Redans, a Gibraltar is the far more appropriate description.  Removing the blindness the is a major difference between the two holes.  More than that though, Gibs are quite a bit more receptive to the aerial shot. Now, I couldn't say if Dr Mac's Gib is the original, but its hard to imagine another early hole quite like it due to all the bunkering.  Interestingly, Swinley's 4th is very similar to Gib...and we know Colt saw Dr Mac plans when he visited Leeds.  Is the similarity of the holes (and other Colt 3s) a mere coincidence?

Ciao

We know Colt saw MacKenzie's plans for Alwoodley. I have never before heard it suggested that plans for ?Moortown existed at this time.

[Sean_A]

James


This is an interesting, if short thread.  Most of the time when people speak of Redans, a Gibraltar is the far more appropriate description.  Removing the blindness the is a major difference between the two holes.  More than that though, Gibs are quite a bit more receptive to the aerial shot. Now, I couldn't say if Dr Mac's Gib is the original, but its hard to imagine another early hole quite like it due to all the bunkering.  Interestingly, Swinley's 4th is very similar to Gib...and we know Colt saw Dr Mac plans when he visited Leeds.  Is the similarity of the holes (and other Colt 3s) a mere coincidence?

Ciao

We know Colt saw MacKenzie's plans for Alwoodley. I have never before heard it suggested that plans for ?Moortown existed at this time.

Adam


You know I must stir the pot.  I am not aware of specific plans Colt saw. It doesn't seem too much of a stretch to suggest a Gib like drawing was lying about...especially since Dr Mac had an idea for a Redan-like hole at Alwoodley's 11th. It just seems far too coincidental that Swinley and Moortown should have such similar holes.  What do you think?





On a side note, these pix make it painfully clear that Swinley needs to work on the course.

Ciao

[Jeff_Brauer]

I don't really know, but I always thought that perhaps Mac was being sly when he said he hadn't "seen" the Redan when he designed the Gib.  He certainly had to have heard about it, no?  So, it seems as if it was an attempt to recreate, not realizing the severity of the reverse slope, or perhaps too timid to actually build it.

For the Mac scholars out there, did he build a lot/any of reverse slope greens?  Or had he already decided on some level that they weren't his cup of tea?

[Tom_Doak]

For the Mac scholars out there, did he build a lot/any of reverse slope greens?  Or had he already decided on some level that they weren't his cup of tea?

Jeff:


He built the same as most other architects, i.e., not many.  Crystal Downs has two [12th & 13th], but those both have a Maxwell influence.  Pasatiempo has two or three, but that's with a lot of green sites that fall steeply away from the line of play.

[Jon Wiggett]

I would not consider Gibraltar to be a Redan copy as to stay on the green at NB you need to land the ball short and use the land to slow the ball and feed it in or knock it through the back and chip&putt. With Gibraltar you have to option of a high fade (for R/H players) but there is no option though the back. Indeed for me the only similarities are the right to left aspect of the hole.

Jon

[Ally Mcintosh]

I would not consider Gibraltar to be a Redan copy as to stay on the green at NB you need to land the ball short and use the land to slow the ball and feed it in or knock it through the back and chip&putt. With Gibraltar you have to option of a high fade (for R/H players) but there is no option though the back. Indeed for me the only similarities are the right to left aspect of the hole.

Jon

I'm with Jon on this.

Indeed if you consider that most greens have their axis slightly offset from the line of play, then the similarity really starts and stops with the right to left.

Front left bunker comes with the territory of a right to left axis. In Gibralter's case, the right side bunkers are in a different position to those of Redan. Plus the back to front slope on the green is completely opposite.

Gibralter is just a really good par three. I don't really see it as a template.

[James Bennett]

thanks for resurrecting an old thread Sean - gosh we had some fun and good ideas a decade ago.
I should add my pics of Alwoodley #11 to this thread.  Perhaps when I check my old photo bucket account and find the pics....

James B

[James Bennett]

The extract from the Alwoodley Plan for #11.



And, the 11th in 2007, complete with 'ass-shot' (apologies again - I wish I could photoshop it).

[JJShanley]

Would you consider the 16th at Longniddry (East Lothian) a Gibralter?


 
IMSMC, it plays a little uphill, with the front bunker blocking the view of the green (which tilts back to front.)

[Jeff Bergeron]

What would #3 at Merion East be?