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Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The need for bunker liners is a result of poor design
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2015, 12:50:55 PM »
Paul,

I will likely never use another fabric liner, however when it came out it was the best thing going and I used it. 

I think I design practical bunkers and I do have clients who want "FLASH" but this angle of repose thing is something I pay more attention to now.  I have installed hundreds of thousands of square feet of Better Billy Bunker and have not had a failure with it yet.  As a case study, I put it on the steepest faced and deepest bunkers at Kinloch.  Not a problem yet.  I have also used other methods at Kinloch to compare.  The other methods have been more costly and in some cases have failed.  I agree you should talk to Jerry Lemons for the "horses mouth" facts.  I do not agree totally with your statement that the need for bunker liners is a result of poor design, for many of the reasons listed by the other GCA's above, but I applaud your engaging us in a discussion.

Lester

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The need for bunker liners is a result of poor design
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2015, 02:14:42 PM »

Interesting explanation Alan, and I might experiment with the Billy Bunker... but for now I'm going to stick with my guns...proper design, construction and the right sand and drainage materials are still key to a successful bunker for me.


Earlier I called the Owner/builder of a course I designed in up state NY just to check on it. It was built 16 years ago on rolling terrain in an old apple orchard. Soils are clay/rock and don't drain well (I know because I grew up there and have dug in everything) If you want a pond you just dig it out on a slope and once rain fills it up you have a stable pond, no leaks, no liners. We built the course for under 1.5M and it received Golf Course Digests Best New Bargain of the Year in 2000.


After reading that the USGA recklessly states that bunkers should be redone every 7 years, I decided to give him a call. BTW I think that this type of recommendation from one of the governing bodies of the game is totally misleading to superintendents and club-owners and managers and just drives course maintenance costs up...along with similar estimates that the irrigation needs to be re done every 15 years, same for the greens etc...and this is from the same group that gave us the Chambers Bay maintenance fiasco. I don't buy it.


The course, along with it's award winning restaurant, is the very successful Altamont Orchards...a model for what a public course can be. One of the owners is Dan Abbruze, who runs golf operations:


-Dan how are your bunkers holding up? Have you had to rebuild any?


No, they're fine. we pull the sand off the faces once a year to re edge them, them put it back and put a little more in tho freshen them up, thats it.


-Drain OK? (we used a herring bone pattern with 4"perf pipe in washed pea gravel...no sock or liner on top. We switched to solid/smooth wall outfalls  get the water out faster and avoid silt buildup).


No, they're all good. We did have one clog where wetland vegetation in the outfall had choked it off ,but we removed the clog and its good.


-The USGA says you need to redo your bunkers every 7 years, when you going to do yours?


Not till they start to fail and its been 16 years so far. I'd be broke if I listened to that advice lol


-How are your greens doing BTW...need to replace them soon? (the course is generally recognized as having some of the best greens in the Albany Region, by vote)(they are well sited, normal USGA with a gravel blanket and just covered with a thin layer of sand before they are put to bed for the winter)


They are probably the best ever...no real poa issues we can't spray out... rolling at 10 right now. We tried a new product on the buried elephant at 6, and its perfect now. (it would dry out, used profile, zeolite etc without great success). We spray on a sunblock that blocks out the UV rays and you can't tell the difference from the rest of the green.


-Irrigation OK?


When we had the 20 below spell this winter the ground froze down 5' in some places. We had some breaks we had to repair. Clay moves.


-It's been 16 years...are you planning on redoing your irrigation anytime soon?


Ahh no lol




Anyway, I could go on but won't, and I could call other courses we have built but I feel results would be similar.


We built this course for less than what a typical irrigation system costs today. Somethings wrong, and it's not just bunker liners...they're just one the many extras that have become the industry norm. Want to expand golf?
Build better and cheaper using common sense design and don't be sold on bells and whistles. Build more Orchard Creeks.


I could go on but I won't.

paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The need for bunker liners is a result of poor design
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2015, 03:11:45 PM »

After reading that the USGA recklessly states that bunkers should be redone every 7 years, I decided to give him a call. BTW I think that this type of recommendation from one of the governing bodies of the game is totally misleading to superintendents and club-owners and managers and just drives course maintenance costs up...along with similar estimates that the irrigation needs to be re done every 15 years, same for the greens etc...and this is from the same group that gave us the Chambers Bay maintenance fiasco. I don't buy it.


Paul,
I started to get into this USGA crap earlier when I read that same sentence but didn't have time.  BUT AGREE 100 percent.  I don't think the USGA owns a single bunker.  They know they are a driver of much of this stuff and they also know that many of the people making decisions for various clubs don't know what they don't know and use the USGA simply as an insurance policy to go in the file so that in the future they can throw blame back at the the USGA instead of themselves if something doesn't work. 

As I watch Donald Trump stand up to NBC and the border crap etc it makes me realize that golf really needs someone like that to question the BS so often thrown.  These things like USGA feel they are beyond reproach and if you question such you are the bad guy...there's a lot of guys like you describe above who tire of such but could care less if the USGA exist or not...I wish one of the big boys would question them hard....ok enough.... :)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 03:13:28 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The need for bunker liners is a result of poor design
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2015, 04:17:23 PM »

Interesting explanation Alan, and I might experiment with the Billy Bunker... but for now I'm going to stick with my guns...proper design, construction and the right sand and drainage materials are still key to a successful bunker for me.

.......


Paul

I agree fully with the statement above - all those things need to be in place for a successful bunker; my only point is that there can be times when that isn't enough. If all those pieces are in place the chances of the bunker performing perfectly to very well are very high. However if the stuff you can't modify like climate or environment are effecting things then you need other options. For example, many moons ago when I worked at Loch Lomond they were rebuilding their bunkers as you described (as there were no available liners at the time) and yet they still washed out (100+ inches a year doesn't help). They have trial Blinder and Better Billy bunkers now and both are performing extremely well. So even with the correct construction the environment necessitated more.

All the liners require the bunker to be built as you state for them to work properly.

As for the USGA, it is a guideline. It actually states bunker sand lasts 7 years, but in reality isn't that all a bunker is! Being a guideline I don't think it's meant to be a strict number, for, as you described, there are scenarios where the sand greatly exceeds the 7 year number; while also there are situations where it needs replacing well before 7 years. I think a lot of these numbers are available for clubs to add a value for depreciation purposes and it just happens to be an average number that works for the given area of the course too. Isn't the lifespan of a USGA green 25 years? Yet you don't see clubs ripping them out.

I think the take away from this thread is that if you design and build a bunker properly and use the correct materials then the chances of issues are greatly reduced. If for whatever reason that isn't enough we have another tool in the liners to help fix the problem.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 04:37:39 PM by Alan FitzGerald »
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The need for bunker liners is a result of poor design
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2015, 05:03:39 PM »
Alan - I'm fine with all you just said and agree with most...The title of this thread is a bit tongue in cheek, as can be my way.


It's a big tent we all work under, with plenty of space to accomodate all of us. I was just claiming a small corner that works for me.
Hell, I'll go sit on the roof if need be!


Cheers
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The need for bunker liners is a result of poor design
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2015, 09:21:05 PM »
Paul,

I will likely never use another fabric liner, however when it came out it was the best thing going and I used it. 

I think I design practical bunkers and I do have clients who want "FLASH" but this angle of repose thing is something I pay more attention to now.  I have installed hundreds of thousands of square feet of Better Billy Bunker and have not had a failure with it yet.  As a case study, I put it on the steepest faced and deepest bunkers at Kinloch.  Not a problem yet.  I have also used other methods at Kinloch to compare.  The other methods have been more costly and in some cases have failed.  I agree you should talk to Jerry Lemons for the "horses mouth" facts.  I do not agree totally with your statement that the need for bunker liners is a result of poor design, for many of the reasons listed by the other GCA's above, but I applaud your engaging us in a discussion.

Lester


Kinlock is a great golf course my friend, and if you (and Mike) say the BBB is a great product then thats all the reference I need.
But hold your applause because I might veer off at any time  :)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The need for bunker liners is a result of poor design
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2015, 01:46:06 AM »
I appreciate this thread.  Our club is converting to Billy Bunkers this year and it is nice to have some informed discussion that relates to such decisions.

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The need for bunker liners is a result of poor design
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2015, 06:56:08 AM »
...The title of this thread is a bit tongue in cheek, as can be my way.....

Cheers


No worries, it was a good conversation!


And don't worry, you'll probably find me up on the roof with ya!!



Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The need for bunker liners is a result of poor design
« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2015, 08:52:51 AM »
On a quick re-read, the technical points are all right on, but there is probably too little discussion of the members/public perception and rising standard issues which drive re-building, and liners.

All it may take at a club is one member or important guest to get a bad lie to set off the debate.  Or one rater to mention it would be a higher number with pure white sand.  So, besides the technical issue of when a bunker wears out, there is the perception of when a bunker has worn out its welcome.

And, to be fair, when I was on my very first construction job, some 38 years ago, two things really stood out as a surprise - the amount of hand labor used to prep 150+ acres for seed, and the fact that they merely dumped 6" of sand over native Chicago clay to form the bunker.  Even as a rank novice, I was expecting some sort of barrier layer, figuring sand and soil would soon mix.

The idea of some sort of barrier does make some sense, even though it complicates the entire process.

On a related note, even if you use fabric liners, I have tried and recommend against the "Mighty Edge" bunker edge liner to maintain the designed edge.  A time consuming bear to install, and impossible to compact the small areas left behind the plastic, which leads to some slumping, even if you think you want your bunker design to last unchanged forever.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The need for bunker liners is a result of poor design
« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2015, 09:08:47 AM »
I live on the roof...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The need for bunker liners is a result of poor design
« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2015, 11:58:19 AM »
I'm not in the industry but I just came across "Linebacker" at John Fought's renovation project at Maryvale GC in Phoenix:


http://bunkersplus.com/specs/


Has anyone used this?
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”