Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA

[MCirba]

Pat,

That's pretty garbled grammar but I get your subtle change of always intended to intended before the Shinny Inn was toast.  

Perhaps his members didn't like the Inn or couldn't stand those greasy motorists with bug spattered faces from roaring down the Shinnecock Highway at 16 mph?  

Not to mention all those women members of Shinnecock! 

[DMoriarty]

Bryan,   Here is an early photo of NGLA's 18th, published in the January 1913 edition of Golf.  It gives some idea of coastline at the early stage, and it seems to basically look like beach.  I am not exactly sure what is visible in the far left of the photo.

Also amazing is the size of the fairway bunker.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

The next time I visit I'll try to take a photo from the current set of tees on # 18, at the same angle.

I don't think that's the coast line, rather the flats beneath the practice tee.
I believe the coastline is further to the right.

There are a number of trees that are now surrounding the parking lot that might block views of the clubhouse

There's also something about the clubhouse in your photo that doesn't resemble the current clubhouse.

When I next visit I'll try to reevaluate

[Jon Cavalier]

David,

The next time I visit I'll try to take a photo from the current set of tees on # 18, at the same angle.

I don't think that's the coast line, rather the flats beneath the practice tee.
I believe the coastline is further to the right.

There are a number of trees that are now surrounding the parking lot that might block views of the clubhouse

There's also something about the clubhouse in your photo that doesn't resemble the current clubhouse.

When I next visit I'll try to reevaluate

Pat:

Here's a shot that might give you what you're looking for. Wide angle, taken from the 18th tee (though not quite the exact same angle - if you need a different shot, let me know). I'm also including David's photo for ease of comparison.

[DMoriarty]

I don't think that's the coast line, rather the flats beneath the practice tee.
I believe the coastline is further to the right.

Thanks Patrick.  I didn't mean to suggest that it was actually the "coastline" but rather that the land north of the bluff and the 17th was sandy waste and probably wouldn't have played into any of CBM's initial plans. I believe Bryan had speculated that there was usable land north of the 17th and 18th, and I don't think that CBM considered that to be useable, useful land.

There's also something about the clubhouse in your photo that doesn't resemble the current clubhouse.

I has definitely been expanded.
________________________________________________

Jon Cavalier,  Thanks for posting your image. It is certainly a good match for the old one.

[Bryan Izatt]

David,

I don't recall speculating that there was usable land to the north of 17 and the first part of 18.  I observed that whatever was there was not shown  on the model.  There was something there that looked like swamp and sand bars on the 1904 topo.  From your picture it does look like sandy waste and/or beach.  It did get used at some point for the practice area.  Anyway, nice picture.  Remarkably similar to Jon's current picture.

Patrick,

According to the now gone club history draft there were additions to the clubhouse.  The current clubhouse was apparently not built all in one go in 1910-11.

[Jim Nugent]

Did this thread lose a few days of posts, after they installed the new formatting? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan & David,
 
Thanks.
 
I'll try to take some pictures from the 18th tee area on my next visit.
 
When you look at all of these old photos and see how rugged the land and features were, and you consider the rudimentry equipment used in those days, the game of golf had to be one really, really hard game.
 
And yet, it's popularity kept increasing despite the demands of the game.
 
I wonder, in today's world, if golfers had to play under those conditions, with that equipment, what the level of whining would be ?  And, what would that do to the game's popularity ?

[MCirba]

Patrick,

That's a very poignant post and I agree.

However, seeing that clubhouse location without the trees in the way really exemplifies what a sharp rise it's located atop.

Why would you think MacDonald would have routed over it instead of around it (as he did) utilizing the best landforms of the bluff near the water and the valley below that embankment?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

That's a very poignant post and I agree.

However, seeing that clubhouse location without the trees in the way really exemplifies what a sharp rise it's located atop.

Why would you think MacDonald would have routed over it instead of around it (as he did) utilizing the best landforms of the bluff near the water and the valley below that embankment?
 
Mike,
 
You have to separate the 18th hole from the 1st hole in this discussion.
 
The location of the 18th hole is pretty much a universal "given"
Who wouldn't site a hole, whether it ascended or descended at that location.
 
Since CBM had discovered the 2nd, 3rd and 4th holes at the outset,
He merely had to create a connecting hole between # 18 green and # 2 tee.
 
He could have easily descended to a green site not far from the 2nd tee by going over the land where the clubhouse sits.
 
Is it any more steeply sloped than the tee to green slope of # 17 ? 
 
Is the ascent to # 3 more steeply sloped than the slope from # 1 tee down to the area of the 1st green ?
 
He went around an area well suited for golf because that's where he always wanted to site his clubhouse, with magnificent views of the golf course and Peconic Bay.
 
On the other hand, there are those who are moronic enough to claim that he would have preferred siting his clubhouse such that he'd be looking up at the clubhouse at Shinnecock with one view and looking at a commercial hotel and it's parking lot next door with another view.

[MCirba]

Patrick,

I'm not clear that he sited the second hole early in the process.  I'm pretty sure that wasn't among the holes he reported finding prior to securing the land in December 1906. 

Also, because he had already sited his Alps early I'm not sure he would have created/needed to utilize another steep rise in his routing.  I do think the results show that he used the best landforms available for golf. 

So, do you know the date of that model?

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

......................
 
On the other hand, there are those who are moronic enough to claim that he would have preferred siting his clubhouse such that he'd be looking up at the clubhouse at Shinnecock with one view and looking at a commercial hotel and it's parking lot next door with another view.

You do realize that the Shinnecock Inn and the SHGC clubhouse are more or less in the same direction from Macdonald's original clubhouse site "near" the Shinnecock Inn that he abandoned when the SI burned down.  That would be the site beside his originally intended 1st and 18th holes. 

BTW, how far back does your "always" go?  Did he always intend the Peconic Bay site from the day he saw it on the first horseback ride?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

I'm not clear that he sited the second hole early in the process.  I'm pretty sure that wasn't among the holes he reported finding prior to securing the land in December 1906.
 
Mike,
 
I think it's pretty clear that he found the 2nd hole early.
 
The first hole he stated he found was the Alps, the 3rd hole.
If he found the third hole, tee to green, how far away do you think the 2nd green would be ?
 
On page 191 he describes finding the 2nd hole right after he describes finding the 13th, the Cape.
 
Subsequently, he goes on to describe how easy the 7th hole, the Road hole, was to duplicate.
 
Just because he didn't state the order of holes he discovered doesn't mean that the 2nd hole wasn't an early discovery, especially when he stated that the 3rd hole was what led to the 4th hole.
 
With the 3rd tee established, how obtuse would you have to be not to locate the 2nd green nearby. 

Also, because he had already sited his Alps early I'm not sure he would have created/needed to utilize another steep rise in his routing.  I do think the results show that he used the best landforms available for golf. 
 
Mike, do you proof read before posting.
If you admit that he found the Alps early, do you really believe he was in the dark as to where to locate the 2nd green ?
Especially given that the property line was tight to the 3rd and 2nd hole.
Essentially, if he didn't discover the Sahara, by default the hole would have been where it presently sits due to the property line and location of the 3rd tee.
 
As to your absurd landform argument, Macdonald himself states that the 2nd hole is better than the original at St George's
 
Read page 191, it's the landform that he found attractive for his Sahara.
He describes the play of the hole over the landform you seem to be criticizing.

So, do you know the date of that model?

Nope, wish I did.
 
Do you ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

On the other hand, there are those who are moronic enough to claim that he would have preferred siting his clubhouse such that he'd be looking up at the clubhouse at Shinnecock with one view and looking at a commercial hotel and it's parking lot next door with another view. [/color]




You do realize that the Shinnecock Inn and the SHGC clubhouse are more or less in the same direction from Macdonald's original clubhouse site "near" the Shinnecock Inn that he abandoned when the SI burned down.
 
"More or Less" ?
 
Where exactly was that site "near" the SI ?
 
That would be the site beside his originally intended 1st and 18th holes.   

BTW, how far back does your "always" go?  Did he always intend the Peconic Bay site from the day he saw it on the first horseback ride?
 
My guess is that the site became evident/obvious to him after his studying of the land with Whigham.
 
Did you ever wonder why Sebonack sited their clubhouse in it's current location and not by the gate into Bayberry ?

[DMoriarty]

David,

I don't recall speculating that there was usable land to the north of 17 and the first part of 18.  I observed that whatever was there was not shown  on the model.  There was something there that looked like swamp and sand bars on the 1904 topo.  From your picture it does look like sandy waste and/or beach.  It did get used at some point for the practice area.  Anyway, nice picture.  Remarkably similar to Jon's current picture.

I must have misunderstood something you had written in an earlier post.  For what it is worth, if I recall the model correctly it is mounted on board a, which is painted blue. So I don't think the blue areas are necessarily supposed to be water.


Jon's photo is so close it looks like a setup. 

[MCirba]

Patrick,

Nope...wish I did because it would help to solve the very few remaining mysteries. 

I suspect it's closer to 1910 than 1908 given the development of the bunkering plan but wouldn't bet the house on it.