The Old Course at St Andrews - why do seven and eleven cross over?

[Michael Moore]

I was so hypnotized by the crossover that it took me a few weeks of study to notice that this feature is totally superfluous. It would obviously be safer and and saner to play the holes to the converse greens, but to me this was the heart and soul of the puzzle.


What is the history of this routing? Did these holes ever play otherwise?

[Bill_McBride]

Seven is a much better hole played to the right half, and eleven to the left.  And it would be a long walk to both 8 and 11 tees, plus wouldn't 8 and 10 greens have to be flipped?   The crossover works!

[mike_beene]

Why would 8 and 10 have to flip?

[Matthew Rose]

#11 is the Eden.... I suppose for it to work it has to be played from more or less the angle that it is played from. Somebody figured this out a long time ago, when you never had to worry about safety or logistics or anything.


I think the crossover is a delightful anachronism that just gives it all the more character, not that it needs any.

[Bill_McBride]

Why would 8 and 10 have to flip?

You're right, no need to flip 8 and 10.  What does happen is two things:


This would introduce two long walks behind the 7/11 green


The new 7th would play much like the Reverse course where you play from 13 tee to the current 11 green, over Hill Bunker.  I think a lot more shots into the left half of the green could affect play on the right half.  And the Reverse hole is dastardly. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael,
 
Since the original routing/order of play was in reverse, I wonder how the 7th/11th played under that arrangement ?

[Adrian_Stiff]

The original 7th was played over the ground that is the 12th fairway to the area of green we think of as the 11th. The 11th has not altered position and was that way even in the reversed original course. The reversed 12th is the same 12th, not to the area we know today as the 6th. 8, 9 and 10 were the same also.

[Rich Goodale]

Michael

According to James Balfour (ISBN 1430472774), there was not much change to either the 7th or the 11th when they were "improved" along with the rest of the course in the mid-19th century.  The mysterious fairway on the 7th used to be much narrower, so widening the course to the right (going out) provided a bit more freedom off the tee.  As for the 11th, Balfour says tht the old green (as well as the 7th) used to be small and completely surrounded by thick bent grass rough.  The widening right allowed them to develop the long and mysterious double green complex that now exists.

Rich

[Dave McCollum]

MM—

I was so fascinated by the cross-over it was the single most important feature I wanted to see.  I wanted to see how golfers handled the interaction.  When my chance finally arrived, I got so caught up in the golf, I forgot to make a point studying this feature and have no memory the cross traffic impacting our play.  Afterwards, it was one of those “damn!” slaps to the forehead. 

Later in that trip I made up for it by playing Gairloch high up the west coast.  They had four or five cross-overs  on a nine hole track.  Hard hats and body armor encouraged for busy days.

[Tom_Doak]

The original 7th was played over the ground that is the 12th fairway to the area of green we think of as the 11th. The 11th has not altered position and was that way even in the reversed original course. The reversed 12th is the same 12th, not to the area we know today as the 6th. 8, 9 and 10 were the same also.

I must admit, it had never occurred to me to think when the crossover was added to the course.  Adrian's quote is the closest to explaining it, but doesn't quite go far enough.


Originally, the whole course was single-file and not double-wide as we know it today, and there are some distinct fairways now that barely existed then.  #12 fairway was the way to #7 / 11 green back then, and most of #6 fairway and green was likely not there at all.  [This makes me think twice about which others of today's holes were not part of the original nine out and nine back.]


So, the crossover happened when the course was widened to what we know today.  They didn't want to give up #11 as we know it, and they didn't want play coming the other way to kill people on #11 green, so they took a detour around to the right to create #6 and #7 as distinct fairways ... because there was a great hazard keeping them from extending #11 green to the left to use as #7 and avoid a crossover!

[David_Tepper]

"Later in that trip I made up for it by playing Gairloch high up the west coast.  They had four or five cross-overs  on a nine hole track.  Hard hats and body armor encouraged for busy days."

Dave M. -

+1!

DT

[Adrian_Stiff]

The original 7th was played over the ground that is the 12th fairway to the area of green we think of as the 11th. The 11th has not altered position and was that way even in the reversed original course. The reversed 12th is the same 12th, not to the area we know today as the 6th. 8, 9 and 10 were the same also.

I must admit, it had never occurred to me to think when the crossover was added to the course.  Adrian's quote is the closest to explaining it, but doesn't quite go far enough.


Originally, the whole course was single-file and not double-wide as we know it today, and there are some distinct fairways now that barely existed then.  #12 fairway was the way to #7 / 11 green back then, and most of #6 fairway and green was likely not there at all.  [This makes me think twice about which others of today's holes were not part of the original nine out and nine back.]


So, the crossover happened when the course was widened to what we know today.  They didn't want to give up #11 as we know it, and they didn't want play coming the other way to kill people on #11 green, so they took a detour around to the right to create #6 and #7 as distinct fairways ... because there was a great hazard keeping them from extending #11 green to the left to use as #7 and avoid a crossover!

Yes the original course was more up the left side than the middle, though the 5th/14th would seem to have been central and 6 and 13 followed roughly the same ground as 13 now. The 1st green is the most recent (1874 from memory) but at that same sort time Old Tom did the 7th and probably the 6th (that may have been later though) Everything just got widened. I think 17 is more modern with it's drive. The reverse 2nd played to area where the 2nd green is now up the current 17th corridor, the shots you see of 18 in reverse only came to be after the new 1st green was built, previously 18 is as now, though the green was 50 yards closer, not sure of the timing of this but I think it was OTM.

[Andrew Simpson]

"Later in that trip I made up for it by playing Gairloch high up the west coast.  They had four or five cross-overs  on a nine hole track.  Hard hats and body armor encouraged for busy days."

Dave M. -

+1!

DT

I think the cross over works even if only to save the long walks. On crossovers, it's not tricky to filter through. We had a cross on 2 and 17, 17 had right of way but people used som ecommon sense and even with 110 playing 2 rouds in a day there wasn't a problem!