12 at Augusta vs 17 at Sawgrass

[Dan_Callahan]

Which is a harder hole? I've never played either, but both look like crazy intimidating tee shots with a short iron. Initially, because it's an island green, I would've picked Sawgrass. But thinking about it some more, I think the shallowness of 12 would make it a harder target to hit.

Thoughts?

[Peter Pallotta]

Dan - I don't know which is harder, but I'd much prefer to play the 12th, if for no other reason than that back bunker, and the exciting and challenging shot that for years I've watch the best in the world leave short in the face of a green that runs away and the water that awaits. You can play 'safe' there every time by taking more club and trying to take a 5 out of the mix, but that back bunker is often the result -- and it's a heck of place from which to make your 4. I think the hole just marvelous in its simplicity -- offering our much beloved options/risk-rewards in a pure and elegant form.  

Peter

[David Ober]

Does anyone know the dimensions of #12 at Augusta? Specifically, how deep is it on the left, center, and right?

[Dan_Callahan]

I also wonder about the layout of 12. Specifically, why doesn't anyone miss long right? Seems wide open over there, and a decent spot when the hole is on the left. Is it just because they're hitting a short iron and aren't really thinking about bailing out? Or is a tougher chip than it looks from over there?

[cary lichtenstein]

I played em both, 17 is harder and much  more intimidating

[JESII]

Do you think that's because it's uphill?

[Matthew Petersen]

I also wonder about the layout of 12. Specifically, why doesn't anyone miss long right? Seems wide open over there, and a decent spot when the hole is on the left. Is it just because they're hitting a short iron and aren't really thinking about bailing out? Or is a tougher chip than it looks from over there?

The green is angled, so it's much shorter on the left, longer on the right. If you were playing to a left hole location at 155, it'd be almost 175 to the back right edge. No one is going to try to hit it over there on purpose and it's pretty hard to accidentally miss long and right.

[Joe Zucker]

I think Matt nailed it.  For a righty, it's nearly impossible to miss a shot long and right.  All miss hitts that go right are short and ones missed left are long due to the nature of the swing.  That's the beauty of the hole.  The bailout really is long and left, but that's a tough up and down to the change in levels to the green and the narrow space between the bunkers.

The thing that gets me about the hole is the wind.  The best players in the world say its so difficult to judge, but i don't quite understand.  It supposedly swirls above the pines, but I still don't understand exactly why it swirls there and not the rest of the course.  Great holes cause players to think too much.  Partly by luck and partly by intention, the 12th does it fantastically well.  The 17th, just asks for a good shot, not as much thinking.

[Matthew Petersen]

It's a unique are of the course, and not easy to picture if you've never been there. It's all the way at the low pint of the course but the area around the tee is very open--the tee just sort of sits in a huge expanse of short grass in the corner of the 11th fairway and 13th fairway. Then the green is tucked into a hill with huge trees towering above it, so I can imagine you not only sometimes feel a different wind on the green than on the tee, but that may even be the reality.

It clearly is an issue and in the player's heads. On virtually all short irons pros play, they hit their number within a couple yards--the miss is a little right or a little left. Shots long and short are common at #12, however. Part of that is the shallow nature of the green, but that's certainly not the only issue.

I haven't seen 17 at Sawgrass in person. I have played other island greens, including 17 at PGA West, which is longer and absolutely terrifying from the tee. I guess the question boils down to: harder in what respect? You're more likely to make an 8 at Sawgrass, but probably more likely to make 3 there, as well. The terror is that a poor shot in the water means you have to do it all over again. The green is enough bigger at Sawgrass that I suspect you are more likely to hit the green there, if you make a decent swing. But you can miss the green at Augusta and not be wet, and scary as some of the chips around that green might be, I think I'd rather be chipping 2 than playing 3 from the drop area. So kind of a mixed bag in terms of difficulty.

[noonan]

I played 17. I thought the green was forgiving

-1 for 2 rounds and I am a chop.

[Martin Lehmann]

It's difficult to say which is the harder hole, since I haven't played either of them. But if the question would be which is the better hole, the answer would be easy for me: the 12th at Augusta.

The 17th is spectacular and unique because it's one of the first island greens ever built. But from a strategic point of view, the hole is quite one-dimensional. It's penal design in it's severest form. Hitting the island is the only option you have.

Obviously the 12th is pretty penal too, but there are more playing options. You can go for the widest part of the green, hit the backside, the front bunker or one of the bunkers behind the green. Even laying-up in front of the creek can be an option (haven't seen that at The Masters though...). Missing the green is not end of story, but gives the player the opportunity and challenge to save par. Adding the aspect of the swirling winds, the beauty and the element of luck (now and then a ball hit short stays at the bank miraculously) and it leaves little doubt in my mind that the 12th at Augusta is probably the best par 3 in the world.

[Matt MacIver]

#12 is probably only 14 yards deep on the left and right sides and 12 yards in the middle, very small targets and aiming for one of the bunkers wouldn't be much easier. So while I think there is less playable square footage at #12 I think overall it's less intimidating - even azaleas offer more recovery chances than the water or drop zone. I think the wind is equal at both, or can be on at given day.

[Matt Kardash]

I think it depends on the golfers skill level. For any golf than can break 90 I don't think there is any doubt that 12 at Augusta is more difficult. I think PGA Tour scoring averages every year show this to be true. However, for the poor golfer the 17th at TPC is a nightmare.

[Zack Molnar]

For the pin today(sunday, the pin is 11 yards from the front right of the green, and there are only 4 paces behind it, so the right is about 15 yards deep.

I think both holes present a unique mental challenge. For the 12th, the wind is the biggest factor in many players minds, as they may not be able to decide what the wind is doing, and therefore make a tenuous swing, most likely resulting in a pull over the left side of the green, or hitting it short into the water. The recovery from over the green is no cakewalk either as the water is still very much in your mind as you chip back down the slope. A lefty has an advantage at 12, as their misses mimic the shape of the green, but the mental factor is strong enough that im not sure how much of an advantage is there.

For the 17th, i think there is just a pure intimidation factor. The green is actually quite large, so there is plenty of room to hit the green with a variety of mis-hits, but the idea that if your shot misses the green there is no recourse, gets in so many golfers heads, and they try to guide the club, usually resulting in a poor shot that finds the water.

I am not sure which is harder of the two. A few pros certainly manage to make a mess out of each of them each year, so I would have to saw it is a wash. For the more accomplished player, the wind factor at 12 is definitely more troubling than the intimidation of 17, but if it is a day when the swing is a little iffy, both holes will definitely make every player stand over their shot just a little longer

[Tim_Weiman]

Dan,

If you want to play both holes in one day, you can. Well, not really. But, the Tour 18 in Houston has both holes and I have been out there on three occasions and each time found the Sawgrass hole much easier. It is shorter and the green much bigger. I'm 3/3 on hitting the Sawgrass green and 0/3 for the Augusta hole (twice long and once in the water short).

I'm not really a fan of the Tour 18, but supposedly the dimensions are fairly close to the real thing. Aesthetics obviously not!

[Phil Lipper]

The green on 17 certainly is a simpler green, and the shot on 17 isn't really hard until your standing over the ball thinking about all that water. Its certainly one of the most intimidating shots there is.

[Chris Cupit]

The green on 17 certainly is a simpler green, and the shot on 17 isn't really hard until your standing over the ball thinking about all that water. Its certainly one of the most intimidating shots there is.

Phil,

By simpler do you mean simpler to hit given the angles?  I've played both and 12 is an actual pancake in terms of the actual surface whereas 17 has some decent contour to it.

17 seems more intimidating to me.  At 12 I always aimed for the front bunker (as a target) and felt if I hit the ball on line over that bunker I had a decent area depth wise to err.

[Joe Zucker]

I agree with Chris here.  I haven't had the privilege to play Augusta, but from the TV it certainly looks like 17 is the more complex green.  The front left and back right portions of the green provide substantial change in level.  The breaks at #12 may be tough to read because of the subtlety, but overall the green appears to be simpler in structure. 

[MClutterbuck]

I agree with Chris here.  I haven't had the privilege to play Augusta, but from the TV it certainly looks like 17 is the more complex green.  The front left and back right portions of the green provide substantial change in level.  The breaks at #12 may be tough to read because of the subtlety, but overall the green appears to be simpler in structure. 

#12 does have quite a lot of slope, making a chip from long right quite difficult. I think #12 is tougher than #17, but on a calm day it is not that tough. Long left often kicks right back onto the fringe or green.

[JMEvensky]

#12 does have quite a lot of slope, making a chip from long right quite difficult. I think #12 is tougher than #17, but on a calm day it is not that tough. Long left often kicks right back onto the fringe or green.

The long,right chip at ANGC #12 is a helluva lot easier than the long,right chip at Sawgrass #17.

[Matt OBrien]

If I knew how to post pictures on here I would post a picture of the yardage book from 12 at ANGC...

[cary lichtenstein]

I played 12 at Augusta twice, made 3 both times without any trouble. One was a 2 putt, and the other was a gimme chip.

I played 17 at TPC twice, I hit 6 balls in the water the first time and one the 2nd time. The funny thing about the first time was my 8 iron, ballooned up in the wind twice, as did my 7 iron twice. When I switched to a 6 iron, I hit the green both times and went in the water over the green.

When I went to my wife's bag for my 7 and 8th balls, she said "you don't have either the right swing or the right club to play this hole. Get in the cart". Which I then did.