[Scott Macpherson]

I have just been reading 'My Fifty Years of Golf' by Andra Kirkaldy (1921) and was surprised to read that in 1920 when Earl Haig drove in as Captain of the R&A, Kirkaldy wrote about the Autumn Meeting that immediately followed on the Old Course:  

'There are always four minutes between each of the couples'.

It's hard to think that any Starters would send a two-ball off with just a 4 minute gap these days. Is this more empirical proof that golfers and golf have slowed down?

Scott

[Adrian_Stiff]

Very interesting Scott. 6 minutes is standard two play play intervals.
It assumes  approx 1 minutes of walk per 100 metres and 0.75 minutes (45 seconds) per shot.
On the basis of 4 minutes, the walk can't be quickened, I think it must mean on arriving at that tee shot the group behind are called to play. At 3.30 minutes from the time the first player hits his shot, both pairs should just arrive at their tee shot. (its 4mins today assuming a 260 yard drive)

[Ally Mcintosh]

Very interesting Scott. 6 minutes is standard two play play intervals.
It assumes  approx 1 minutes of walk per 100 metres and 0.75 minutes (45 seconds) per shot.
On the basis of 4 minutes, the walk can't be quickened, I think it must mean on arriving at that tee shot the group behind are called to play. At 3.30 minutes from the time the first player hits his shot, both pairs should just arrive at their tee shot. (its 4mins today assuming a 260 yard drive)

I don't know, Adrian.

Assume the drives only went 220 yards (200m) - That's 2 minutes of walking. Assume 40 seconds between the two golfers on the tee, 40 seconds for the first player to play his second, 20 seconds for the second player (ready golf) and a further 20 seconds for him to get on his way.

Seems a reasonable (but tight) 4 minutes?

Very interesting though. And yes - it does indicate how things have slowed.

[Sean_A]

I wonder of there isn't some confusion with 4somes?  Much of the time back in the day they did play 4somes.

Ciao

[Scott Macpherson]

Sean,

It is not said directly, but the inference is fairly strong that this is a singles match, as it said the Earl was 18th or 19th off, and had to take his turn to tee off (despite being Captain).

Scott

[Adam Lawrence]

'...between each of the couples' is pretty conclusive in that respect surely?

[Brent Hutto]

So is my ciphering correct? Having 4-minute tee time intervals and not experiencing backups would require a pace of 144 minutes/round. That's a 2:24 place in 2-ball match play.

I have no problem at all believing decent players 100 years ago would expect to play that briskly. They probably had caddies single-bagging for them, to boot. Easy-peasy.

P.S. I absolutely guarantee that no player in that Meeting had a line drawn on his ball for the purpose of aiming at the hole before putting. I'll also bet practice swings were a rarity.

[Mark Pearce]

Not sure it is, Adam.  Has "couple" ever been the word used to describe a foursome, rather than "pair".  If they were playing in singles (and it's likely that they were wither playing singles of foursomes) then surely the two golfers in a match would still be a "couple"?  I must admit the word "couple" does really seem odd.  Surely there must be records available of the result of that Autumn Meeting which would show whether it was singles or foursomes?  I must admit my bet would be on singles.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

It is not said directly, but the inference is fairly strong that this is a singles match, as it said the Earl was 18th or 19th off, and had to take his turn to tee off (despite being Captain).

Scott

Scott

I was thinking more generally as I am sure the Autumn Meeting is a scratch event...I thought all the medals for the R&A were scratch?

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

Not sure it is, Adam.  Has "couple" ever been the word used to describe a foursome, rather than "pair".  If they were playing in singles (and it's likely that they were wither playing singles of foursomes) then surely the two golfers in a match would still be a "couple"?  I must admit the word "couple" does really seem odd.  Surely there must be records available of the result of that Autumn Meeting which would show whether it was singles or foursomes?  I must admit my bet would be on singles.

Mark - I still think 'couples' is pretty obviously a term for two guys playing a singles match. Although Sean's point that they'd probably be playing a medal round is interesting...

[James Bennett]

Critical issue - This was 1920.

How far did the ball travel with the implements used in 1920?
It was a 2-ball.

I expect 200 yards was a very good drive for typical member play, but I don't know.  I do recall 440 yards being regarded as a par 5 on some old score cards.

[Brent Hutto]

I play a 435 yard Par 5 every day at my home course. Even I can get up near the green in two strokes occasionally.

We always say that hole is really a short Par 5, or a Par 6 if you don't pick up after your third putt. That green is a bit tricky!

[Jon Wiggett]

A 4 minute time lapse between full shots equates to about 2.5 hours for 18 holes which sound more than plausible. The game would be quicker if players used 3 woods instead of drivers.

Jon

[Bill_Yates]

Several years ago, I was doing a pace of play improvement training and implementation program at a course in Florida. The Head Professional gave me the standard introduction to the facility and mentioned that they had a big problem with slow play complaints. He also told me that they used a 6-minute starting interval.

I hopped in a cart and set up my first observation point on the first tee.  With stopwatch in hand, I started measuring the time intervals between the first players to strike a ball in each group. Knowing that a 6-minut interval is impossible to maintain, I was shocked to see that the intervals I was writing down were, "6, 6, 5, 6, 5, 5..."

"This is crazy," I thought. I then started paying very close attention to the players themselves. What I belatedly discovered was that they were all elderly retired people. In other words, men and women who were short hitters. There just weren't any "long (or longer) hitters" in the field. As a result, because short hitters don't require much open real estate in front of them, they can and did tee off when the group ahead was clear. In this case it was only about a 5 or 6-minute wait. That was lesson #1.

Lesson #2 occurred when I then drove my cart to hole #3 and discovered two groups waiting on the tee, and three groups playing the par 4 third hole which had a creek crossing the fairway directly in front of the green. Then, Hole #4 was a par 3, and there I found two more groups waiting on that tee to play. Play was indeed slow - very slow!

The reason for this story is to confirm the idea that no matter who is playing, short hitters or long hitters, and no matter what starting interval a course management team wants in order to generate the revenue they need, the golf course itself will have the last say and it will eventually determine the proper starting interval.

This is one big reason why architects need to be careful in their routings, especially when it comes to  knowing the clientele and sequencing the holes and course managers need to actively manage the first tee.

I can understand that in 1920 a 4-minute starting interval may have been possible for twosomes of "short hitters."

For those who might be interested, please read my article "Farther, Straighter, Slower" which presents my view of the unintended consequence of unbridled technology and how hitting the ball farther is making play slower and starting intervals longer.  You can find it on my website www.pacemanager.com under "Articles."

[John McCarthy]

Four minute tee time?  Why so long?  

http://www.myvirtualpaper.com/doc/Golfweek-Custom-Media/cdga-june-2014-hires_vp/2014052901/27.html#26

The Diversey Golf Course, a Chicago public course set a world record with 119,750 rounds  in the shortened golf season of Chicago.  The tee times were every minute and a half.  

The course is NLE, probably due to golf balls hitting passing cars.  There is a terrible driving range there now.  I got an old aerial and tried to find old tee and green pads.  The three holes east of Lake Shore Drive were completely redone with yacht club parking and a rebuilt  sea wall.  The only evidence is the extreme north green, by the playground, which seems to have different grass than the rest of the park.  There were faint signs of tees by the tunnel, but I'm just a guy walking around a park, not an expert on NLE golf courses.  

[Ken Moum]

The reason for this story is to confirm the idea that no matter who is playing, short hitters or long hitters, and no matter what starting interval a course management team wants in order to generate the revenue they need, the golf course itself will have the last say and it will eventually determine the proper starting interval.

It seems like operators can never seem to understand that. A couple of days ago we played Papago Golf Course in PHX and we discovered after we arrived that we'd been given a "squeeze time," the program they use allows putting in extra tee times between normal times. So we had a 3-minute interval with the group in front, and a 4-minute one with the group behind.

Then they had everyone starting on #10 due to course maintenence requirements.  And #11 is a par three......

But, as you note, after long waits on #11 tee, it took several holes for the spacing to work itself out to "normal."

I always figured that a reasonable way to determine idea start time intervals was to go to the last green and time the groups coming in.  If they're 10 minutes apart, and you send them out every 7 minutes, by the 20th tee time golfers will have to spend at least an hour not playing golf, just standing around.

K

[Adrian_Stiff]

Most courses that a fairly busy use 8 minute intervals, which is standard 4-ball play. The number of slots from from the 1st to 10th tee is the more the factor of the difficulty/long walks.

We assume 2 hours and 16 minutes for 9 holes so 16 slots, that means 128 golfers can be on the course at any one time. We often have a 4 tee start and that works great we use 1st, 5th, 10th and 14th.

It is hard to play quicker than 4 hours 32 minutes under those parameters, plenty of quick groups with a normal 1st tee start can do 3hr 45.

I think a lot of time could be saved on the green and the magic breakthrough could be achieved with a mark it once rule, the continued marking aligning the line, takes forever, when I look at the time some groups spend on the green it can vary from 40 seconds to 6 minutes, with an average of 4 minutes, I think the mark it once could save between 20 and 30 minutes on a round.

[Brent Hutto]

Adrian,

I play a good many solo rounds, usually weekday afternoon/evenings, and a few years back decided to quit trying to play through all that. Instead I just try to tee off with nobody immediately in front of me and then if I catch up to a threesome or foursome I treat it as an opportunity to work on my patience. 

Here's a couple of observations. You're right on about the greens being where all the potential for change lies. At least overall. There are certainly the clueless guys wandering around in repetitive, aimless circles in their carts and things like that. But the normal slowdown in on the greens with 4-6 minutes per green being not unusual.

But another thing I've noticed is what I call the "17th green slowdown". Sometimes I'll get behind a group that is moving not all that much slower than my preferred solo pace for the bulk of the round. I probably play nine holes in about 1:25 solo and often I'll be behind a group playing at about a 1:40-1:45 pace which is great.

Then they get to the point where they've hit their second shot on the 17th hole. The chipping and putting on 17 and then the entirety of the 18th hole take roughly twice as long as any hole before. And this is even on a course where there 18th is not killer-long or killer-hard. I think it's that they are all collectively "grinding" trying to finish up with a good score and as a result they take more practice swings, freeze over the ball...and here's the thing...hit their full shots on 18 much wilder than they have been hitting.

It's quite a marked effect that I've observed dozens of times. Not really an observation that admits any particular intervention to improve pace over the last couple holes. But I think it offers a certain insight into the effect of trying too hard on pace of play. Almost any foursome that's been taking 10-12 minutes per hole will take a minimum of 25 and more often nearly 30 minutes to play the 17th and 18th.

[Marc Haring]

My one time at Rye as a two, we teed off right behind an ageing 2 ball and despite us getting round in well below 3 hours we didn't see them for dust. When we got in they had long since showered and were well into their roast beef and claret.

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