A Waffle House waitress is more native to the South than a Jagged edged bunker..

[Bill_McBride]

Baptists are notorious for weak coffee.

Baptists oppose both caffeine and nude bathing due to fears they might lead to dancing.

Why don't Southern Baptists make love standing up?

Somebody might think they are dancing!    [rim shot]

[Evan Fleisher]

...and to take this thread in a COMPLETELY different direction, but headed back towards golf somehow...

Can anyone tell me the connection shared between the Waffle House and Bobby Jones? ...................

The two gentleman that started Waffle House were aquaintances of Bobby Jones....Joe Rogers and now his son Jr.  were/are members at Peachtree  and Tom Forkner, who just got in the Ga Golf Hall of Fame(as is Bobby Jones) was a member at East Lake and is a past club champion at Atlanta Athletic Club.....Mr. Forkner has won several senior events if not mistaken and has played in some of the same USGA events as Bobby Jones would have played.....

Wow!!!  That is all great information, but not the connection I was personally looking for.

The founder's son (and current CEO) Joe Rogers Jr. graduated from Georgia Tech, same as Mr. Jones.

But I like all the other connections as well!!!  

[john_stiles]

Waffle House started in 1955 or so.  
Jagged edges on centerline bunker along 14th at ANGC was about 1933.

Jagged edges pre-date Waffle House.  Another southern tradition,   Krystal opened in Chattanooga in 1932.  A bag full of Krystals is more native than jagged edges.

In the south, after all day & night running around on Saturday,  it was (is) either Waffle House or Krystal.  

Jagged edges are definitely making a serious comeback after the lull of the 50s-80s.

[Kalen Braley]

Great pic!!  

Look at that massive fairway bunker that used to be on 14.  And the "pond" in front of 15 was just a creek.

Thanks for posting that.

[Mike_Young]

...and to take this thread in a COMPLETELY different direction, but headed back towards golf somehow...

Can anyone tell me the connection shared between the Waffle House and Bobby Jones? ...................

The two gentleman that started Waffle House were aquaintances of Bobby Jones....Joe Rogers and now his son Jr.  were/are members at Peachtree  and Tom Forkner, who just got in the Ga Golf Hall of Fame(as is Bobby Jones) was a member at East Lake and is a past club champion at Atlanta Athletic Club.....Mr. Forkner has won several senior events if not mistaken and has played in some of the same USGA events as Bobby Jones would have played.....

Wow!!!  That is all great information, but not the connection I was personally looking for.

The founder's son (and current CEO) Joe Rogers Jr. graduated from Georgia Tech, same as Mr. Jones.

But I like all the other connections as well!!!  

Evan,
I knew I would leave something out....forgot you were a Yellow Jacket

[Mike_Young]

Waffle House started in 1955 or so.  
Jagged edges on centerline bunker along 14th at ANGC was about 1933.

Jagged edges pre-date Waffle House.  Another southern tradition,   Krystal opened in Chattanooga in 1932.  A bag full of Krystals is more native than jagged edges.

In the south, after all day & night running around on Saturday,  it was (is) either Waffle House or Krystal.  

Jagged edges are definitely making a serious comeback after the lull of the 50s-80s.

John,
I think that is my point....Waffle House is still around....those edges are gone......hope to bring my group your way soon.
Mike

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mike this post made a wonderful journey to get back to your point again.

[Chris Cupit]

The edges may be gone, but they were better.

[Mike_Young]

The edges may be gone, but they were better.

Chris,
But they didn't work.....as lately as 1988 ANGC using fiberglass matching the color of the sand to keep sand in some areas etc....

[Evan Fleisher]

...and to take this thread in a COMPLETELY different direction, but headed back towards golf somehow...

Can anyone tell me the connection shared between the Waffle House and Bobby Jones? ...................

The two gentleman that started Waffle House were aquaintances of Bobby Jones....Joe Rogers and now his son Jr.  were/are members at Peachtree  and Tom Forkner, who just got in the Ga Golf Hall of Fame(as is Bobby Jones) was a member at East Lake and is a past club champion at Atlanta Athletic Club.....Mr. Forkner has won several senior events if not mistaken and has played in some of the same USGA events as Bobby Jones would have played.....

Wow!!!  That is all great information, but not the connection I was personally looking for.

The founder's son (and current CEO) Joe Rogers Jr. graduated from Georgia Tech, same as Mr. Jones.

But I like all the other connections as well!!!  

Evan,
I knew I would leave something out....forgot you were a Yellow Jacket

No worries, mate!

It's nice to have SOME SORT of personal connection to Mr. Jones, 'cause it sure ain't in the golfing skill cateogry!  

[john_stiles]

Mike,

Jagged edges are making a comeback ?  Yes ?  And you're saying they just don't remember the extra maintenance costs.  

I realize Cuscowilla is semi-resort, but haven't those edges been maintained since about 1997.  My last visit was their invitational in 2005 and seem to remember the jagged edges were still there.

How have Cuscowilla edges held up ?    I have no idea if they go through extra headaches and money as my visits are about every two years.

Last question,  I don't ever remember ANGC having jagged edges since I first saw the back nine in the late 60s.  It now seems that ANGC has always had the more roundish shaped bunkers with sand flashed up very, very high to the edge. Remember Sandy Lyle's shot from 18th fairway bunker.  Now that 'very, very  high sand, flashed up'  does seem like a big maintenance issue.   Is the  'very high' flashed sand of today more of an issue than jagged edges ?

The 1940s/1950s look at ANGC (from Christian's book) seem to have much less of the upswept, very high sand faces.

Yes, I think you are ultimately getting at long term maintenance and costs for every day clubs.   I'm wondering if that style of high flashed sand of the present ANGC doesn't present more problems than jagged edges.  

[BCrosby]

MikeY -

I think think jagged edged bunkers can look terrific. I think they fit in clay-based SE courses quite well. Other bunker styles also work well.

Are jagged-edged bunkers harder to maintain? I assume so. Will they need to be rebuilt more frequently than straight faced buners? I assume so.

I also assume that people that build them understand all that and take on the added costs with their eyes open.

So given all that, what's the beef? Is your objection a style thing?

Bob

 

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

Yes, I think you are ultimately getting at long term maintenance and costs for every day clubs.   I'm wondering if that style of high flashed sand of the present ANGC doesn't present more problems than jagged edges.  

John,
During the 1980's the flashed sand was actually fiberglas colored to match the sand and to keep balls from remaining on the face.
Sure ANGC bunkers are harder to maintain than many but no water enters those bunkers except from above so they should be ok.....IMHO
......the bnkers you guys have at HH are great bunkers and what I would call them a bunker that can be maintained and will stand the test of time.....like khaki pants......or saddle golf shoes.....I think all of this other will just come and go UNLESS it is native such as places like Bandon, many of the Great Lake areas etc.....

[Mike_Young]

MikeY -

I think think jagged edged bunkers can look terrific. I think they fit in clay-based SE courses quite well. Other bunker styles also work well.

Are jagged-edged bunkers harder to maintain? I assume so. Will they need to be rebuilt more frequently than straight faced buners? I assume so.

I also assume that people that build them understand all that and take on the added costs with their eyes open.

So given all that, what's the beef? Is your objection a style thing?

Bob

 

Bob,
My first question would be ..where they the chicken or the egg?  
And as to your other statements..I agree but how long will the people that came in with their eyes open wish to continue w/o taking another path?  IMHO it is a regional thing and in our area it will fade away because it was not meant to be here.....
Where's the beef?
Mike

[john_stiles]

Mike,

I haven't seen jagged edge bunkers at many places in the south.    

And where I have, it seems the folks have the budget to take care of them.   Ate breakfast at Chechessee Creek couple of weeks ago, and this very young Coore & Crenshaw course also has the jagged edge look.

But,  at ANGC, where budget is not an issue,  the various architects (and I presume the leading members) have held onto the bunkers with the long straight lines,  with large radius edges, with high flashed faces, for many years now.
The size and scale of the ANGC bunkers does seem fantastic and to my eye is the overriding aspect of the bunkers.

Back on thread,    the jagged edge look does to be making a comeback, primarily at high end courses, and  I presume there will be the odd course or two who regrets that decision later.

It seems only a few architects are using jagged edges and mostly at high end courses.

[Mike_Young]

Maybe a better consideration is to create a list of places where
jagged bunkers are a "natural fit".  It might be the easier tack.  Today they are affectatiously being used in places with soft round edges to the land and adjacent trees, where they don't fit in or together.

Bunker placement and penality is far more appropriate than appearance.  As I have posted before that if fearsome appearance were all that were important then the Old Course would be pure crap.

p.s. I love grits. Real grits with lots of butter and salt.  None of that instant crap, I'm talking the stuff that needs to cook for almost an hour.

I agree ...have always looked at bunkering the way you describe.....except that I do put sugar on my grits...

[BCowan]

Mike,
Jagged edged is not the easiest description for me to grasp. Is it either the Augusta look or jagged edged look? I think there is a middle ground and I think you need to use what you have to do the best you can. Which means if you try to build a bunker in the south that mimics the northern fescue look...well then I don't think you’re very smart. But, with our warm season grasses we can create a "knarly" look if we just let the lips get out of control a bit and use herbicides to edge rather then equipment. It's quicker and since bermuda will grow vertically, the herbicide edging technique can leave a very "rough" look. Just take round-up and mix it at half strength and spray the edges about every 2-3 weeks in the summer and you can get pretty creative and end up with a southern look that I think is every bit as rugged looking as what you do with cool season grasses in the north.

Great thread, very creative idea.