Barnbougle Lost Farm (Review and Photo Tour)

[David_Elvins]

The irony is that David is discussing the individual merits of the hole, where my point is in regard to the routing of the course.

I am definitely talking about the routing, Mark.

You seem to assume that the flat holes such as 1 or 2 are some sort of compromise or neccessary evil to reach the good land but you ignore the fact that:
1. Coore could have built the course without holes on the flat land of 1,2, and 16 and instead built holes in dramatic dunes to the east of the course. 
2. Coore likes to build holes on flat land because he thinks they are an important part of the golf course. 

Coore could have built the entire course in dramatic dunes and I think you would learn a lot more about routing if you asked yourself:
1. why he chose flatter land?
2. what advantages did he get by using flatter land?
3. what can an architect do on flat land that he can't do in dunes land (hint: build the 2nd green at lost farm)


I like the following quote from Tillinghast and I think it applies well to the routing of Lost Farm: “A round of golf should present eighteen inspirations—not necessarily thrills, for spectacular holes may be sadly overdone. Every hole may be constructed to provide charm without being obtrusive with it. When I speak of a hole being inspiring, it is not intended to infer that the visitor is to be subject to attacks of hysteria on every teeing ground as he casts his eye over the fairway…”

[Sean Walsh]

That's a great quote David.

James,

the land on BD 2 isn't completely flat on the left. There is one ripple (from memory) 20-30m short of the bunker that plays tricks with depth perception making the bunker appear closer to the tee than it is. Flat yes, completely flat no.

[Mark Pavy]

The irony is that David is discussing the individual merits of the hole, where my point is in regard to the routing of the course.

I am definitely talking about the routing, Mark.

You seem to assume that the flat holes such as 1 or 2 are some sort of compromise or neccessary evil to reach the good land but you ignore the fact that:
1. Coore could have built the course without holes on the flat land of 1,2, and 16 and instead built holes in dramatic dunes to the east of the course. 
2. Coore likes to build holes on flat land because he thinks they are an important part of the golf course. 

Coore could have built the entire course in dramatic dunes and I think you would learn a lot more about routing if you asked yourself:
1. why he chose flatter land?
2. what advantages did he get by using flatter land?
3. what can an architect do on flat land that he can't do in dunes land (hint: build the 2nd green at lost farm)


I like the following quote from Tillinghast and I think it applies well to the routing of Lost Farm: “A round of golf should present eighteen inspirations—not necessarily thrills, for spectacular holes may be sadly overdone. Every hole may be constructed to provide charm without being obtrusive with it. When I speak of a hole being inspiring, it is not intended to infer that the visitor is to be subject to attacks of hysteria on every teeing ground as he casts his eye over the fairway…”

David,

You are not talking about the routing, you're waffling on about flat holes.

You jumped straight in and assumed I was talking about the quality of the two holes, suggesting that I had missed two great green complexes.
When I replied,"the green complexes don't change the routing", you replied with-"huh", you clearly had no idea what I was talking about.
Your use of "necessary evil" provides a clear insight of what you're thinking.

Maybe you should consider this: I have spent the last 10 years building and modifying a 9 hole golf course on a very small property. The routing decisions have been like a 10,000 piece jigsaw puzzle of a blue sky. On one hand there are so many options, but on the other, there are few. This experience, whilst on a small scale, has lead me to appreciate and respect the architects skill in determining the routing.

I explained what I meant by my comment quite clearly in my 3rd post in this thread. You seem to have latched onto "compromise" and interpreted "compromise" to some how mean "necessary evil". You fail to understand that the entire routing process involves decisions within constraints, the entire process is full of compromise. 

Regarding LF and the holes routed across the flat part: I'm not going to enter into assumptions behind the decision. Obviously the routing through the dunes to the east didn't work. My point is in regard to the fact that it happens early in the round.

That's a wonderful quote from Tillinghurst, I've heard it before.

[Bill Brightly]

Great photo tours and thanks for posting Benjamin! Brings back fond memories of the GCA Boomerang!

What was your thought about marram grass ot Lost Farm? I found it to be a severe penalty for my many wayward shots, much more of a problem than at BD. Have they cut it back at all at LF?

[George Pazin]

Really George?

Really, Mark.

After reading your last response to David repeatedly and failing to understand what your point, and what point you're trying to make on this entire thread, I will simply say, have a nice day.

[Benjamin Litman]

Great photo tours and thanks for posting Benjamin! Brings back fond memories of the GCA Boomerang!

What was your thought about marram grass ot Lost Farm? I found it to be a severe penalty for my many wayward shots, much more of a problem than at BD. Have they cut it back at all at LF?

You're very welcome, Bill, and apologies for the delayed reply.

As for the marram grass at LF, I played well (and hit it straight) around both Barnbougle tracks, so, for me, the marram served simply as a beautiful framing for many of the fairways. I can imagine that playing out of it is brutal. You're right that there is much, much more of it at LF than at BD--at least more of it within reach--and I don't think they've cut it back (although I have nothing to compare my experience to).

[Chris Kane]

As for the marram grass at LF, I played well (and hit it straight) around both Barnbougle tracks, so, for me, the marram served simply as a beautiful framing for many of the fairways. I can imagine that playing out of it is brutal.

You must have amazing eyesight or use golf balls with flashing lights - extremely hard to find a ball in the marram! I played 36 at BD and 29 at LF over two days a fortnight ago with two friends - handicaps ranging from 4 to 10 - we all played reasonably well but must have lost 20 or 25 balls between us.

The marram is close to an automatic lost ball on both courses. It is my only (slight) criticism of the place - the fairways are wide but the average player will lose a lot of balls regardless of what tees they play from. If only there had been the money for an extra row of fairway irrigation.

On every other criteria the courses are ridiculously good.

[David_Elvins]

As for the marram grass at LF, I played well (and hit it straight) around both Barnbougle tracks, so, for me, the marram served simply as a beautiful framing for many of the fairways. I can imagine that playing out of it is brutal.

You must have amazing eyesight or use golf balls with flashing lights - extremely hard to find a ball in the marram! I played 36 at BD and 29 at LF over two days a fortnight ago with two friends - handicaps ranging from 4 to 10 - we all played reasonably well but must have lost 20 or 25 balls between us.

The marram is close to an automatic lost ball on both courses. It is my only (slight) criticism of the place - the fairways are wide but the average player will lose a lot of balls regardless of what tees they play from. If only there had been the money for an extra row of fairway irrigation.

On every other criteria the courses are ridiculously good.

1 lost ball every nine holes? I would take that on almost any course.

[Chris Kane]

We are all better than average players and drove the ball quite well over the two days. Playing badly would bring the risk of running out of ammo.

[Benjamin Litman]

You must have amazing eyesight or use golf balls with flashing lights - extremely hard to find a ball in the marram! I played 36 at BD and 29 at LF over two days a fortnight ago with two friends - handicaps ranging from 4 to 10 - we all played reasonably well but must have lost 20 or 25 balls between us.

Has nothing to do with my eyesight or the color of my golf balls; I was simply playing, especially driving, well while at Barnbougle, so I was fortunate to never visit the marram. Now, if I had driven it the way I just did in South Carolina, I would have lost loads of balls. But that raises a design question: If you have really wide fairways, shouldn't the penalty for missing them be severe? I say yes, which is why I think the marram works far better at Barnbougle than at, say, Muirfield, where the fairways are much narrower to begin with.

[Bill Brightly]

IMO, the width is needed for the wind. I'm all for penalizing a poor shot, but repeated lost ball drops quickly becomes tiresome. First time I played Lost Farm I lost my 8th and final ball off the tee on 18. (Not a terrible shot, I did not realize how much room there was on the left. ) I was a ticked off 4 handicap. I would gladly accept having to pitch back into the fairway, but that is a rare option with that marram. My only complaint, loved everything else about the experience.

[Benjamin Litman]

Fair point, Bill. I think we're in agreement that penalizing poor shots, especially when fairways are already quite wide (whether to account for wind or not), is proper, so that raises how severe the penalty should be. I agree losing balls is tiresome (it might well be the most deflating part of the game--except for the subsequent walk back to the tee to apply "stroke and distance," although I believe the "Irish Rule" applies at Barnbougle), but what's the alternative? Different grasses wispy and spaced out enough--a la the new Pinehurst--to allow for an attempt to advance the ball? Even wider fairways? In both cases, I think the biggest issue is cost, but I could be wrong.

[David_Elvins]

It's impossible to make fairways wide enough so that players don't miss them.  Once you make them a wider than a certain width, players stop aiming for the middle of the fairway.