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Ran Morrissett

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Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« on: January 08, 2015, 04:45:26 PM »
... under Architecture Timeline and Courses by Country.

The latest edition of The Confidential Guide rolled off the press in October. Tragically, the very next course I saw was one that I had misjudged.  :-[ I should have given Sunningdale’s Old Course a ‘9.’ My blunder is in part due to all the fine work done there since my original visit. Based on its superior topography and how both Park and Colt capitalized on that, it gets my vote for best heathland course.

The original Sunningdale course occupies a unique spot in history. No other inland course was built with the gutta in mind, transformed quickly and smartly when the Haskell arrived and still hosts major televised events. Name another. Walton Heath was the first big course built for the Haskell and Oakmont came along at that time too. I considered The Country Club in Brookline but it has been drastically altered from its origins. Several links have successfully spanned the different eras but for inland courses, the first course at Sunningdale stands alone.

The golf ball - much more than clubs – has been the major disruptive force that has transformed the game. How did Sunningdale transcend the pitfalls that diminished other inland courses? No waterfalls here!  ;) Credit must go to a slew of people. There is Willie Park Jr. who built an unusually muscular course for 1899. Think about the back-to-back forced carries on both shots at his 6th and 7th holes. As the Haskell came into vogue, so began Colt’s tenure as Club Secretary. He was the first in a long line of distinguished gentlemen who have steered Sunningdale in the right direction ever since. For the definitive take on its club history, please peruse The Sunningdale Story by past Club Secretary Guy Bennett, with updates by current club historian, John Churchill. You can find it under our Best of Golf section/Club Histories.


Dogs and golf and the twelfth: Sunningdale does it best.

For me, the brilliance of The Old is its sterling collection of par 4s. Go through them (these days, they commence with the second) and you’ll encounter a remarkably diverse assemblage from tiny ones (e.g. 3 and 11) to the monsters (e.g. 10 and 12). Overall, Sunningdale’s two shotters surely belong in the world top 10, yes? You know the others (Royal Melbourne West, Pine Valley, NGLA, Merion, Oakmont, et al). Some of those (RM West, Oakmont) feature more severe greens but, for me, it’s the balance of Sunningdale’s challenge without favoring any single aspect of the game that resonates. Sunningdale Old is beautifully proportioned.

While there’s gloom and doom about private club life in North America these days, Sunningdale members appear ‘in on a secret’ and seem to have more fun. There is an energy and vibe here that is unmatched in my experience. The Brits do many things better than the rest of the world - murder mysteries, state funerals, secret agents, breakfast and … Sunningdale Golf Club.

Best,

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2015, 07:43:45 PM »
Why is a tree at Sunningdale the most famous tree in golf?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2015, 08:01:31 PM »
"Professionals and amateurs of that era expected such and got on with the task at hand but today’s sniveling professional would gasp if confronted with a 280 yard one shotter requiring a 3 wood."

I don't quite understand the value of one word here. Are we saying that yesterday's sniveling professional would not have gasped? That only this day has sniveling professionals?

If the hole receives the 3 metal properly, then no one will snivel. The third (was it the third?) at Merion during the open was ill-advised to play at that distance. The green had the size to receive the shot, but the green surrounds were far too punitive.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

James Brown

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2015, 08:38:55 PM »
Sunningdale is pure.  Both courses are amazing and between them you can experience just about every architectural aspect in the game.  Both courses also present incredibly enjoyable walks and are largely uncrowded. 

Alan Ritchie

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2015, 12:59:58 AM »
I would definitely agree with james on that, though if given 10 rounds I'd play at least 6 on the old. Hard to come up with a good reason for that mind you, I think I just feel the opening and closing holes are a bit more memorable, and I wasn't as keen on the tight holes 7-9 on the new. Im sure there are many who will prefer the new however.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2015, 11:12:14 AM »
Very nice. Thank you.
atb

Ben Stephens

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2015, 12:10:48 PM »
Having played Sunningdale this year with my father as a present for his 70th birthday.

I quite liked the 1st hole as an opener it was a gentle challenging opening hole and underrated by many. The 2nd was a par 4 not a par 5!

A bit disappointed that Ran did not add the 4th hole as Hole to note which is a great uphill par 3 where the green is clearly visible from the tee which is not the case on many uphill par 3s.  Also the view from the 4th green down the fifth and sixth holes was awesome.

18 like 1 is also underrated the fairway may be wide but it is getting the ball in the right place of the fairway (left hand side) which will give you a better angle to attack the flag on the right hand side of the green.

It is a wonderful set up probably the ultimate quintessential English golf club.

The houses around the course and the cars in the car park  ;D ;D ;D - Millionaires playground!

Ryan Coles

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2015, 12:15:10 PM »
My impressions:

Ran pretty much nailed it.

The bunkering on the Old elevates it above the New.

If you could join one Club in GB&I, Sunningdale would be the one.

For those of us unfortunate not to have travelled to the US for Golf, if Sunningdale is an 8, just how good must the best over there be?

Darragh Garrahy

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2015, 03:10:45 PM »
On point review Ran- pure golfing heaven.

I'm not sure I could pick one of the two courses over the other..maybe if I played them more than once each. Both gems..enjoyed the club atmosphere as much as any club I've been in.

Ivan Lipko

Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2015, 06:50:16 PM »
The best course, definitely from those I have played. BTW, why the heather isn't blooming?

Paul Gray

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2015, 06:37:58 PM »
The best course, definitely from those I have played. BTW, why the heather isn't blooming?

Ivan,

Wrong time of year. It's that simple.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2015, 08:00:36 PM »
Having played Sunningdale this year with my father as a present for his 70th birthday.

I quite liked the 1st hole as an opener it was a gentle challenging opening hole and underrated by many. The 2nd was a par 4 not a par 5!
 


When I played the course the second was a par five.  Has that changed? The length certainly could make it a par four but the terrain made getting there in two difficult.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jeff Bergeron

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2015, 09:49:41 PM »
"Home to wise decisions". What makes a Club make wise decisions? Why is the governance of US clubs different? I belong to two (of four) clubs where horrible governance is destroying each. It doesn't happen overnight and those responsible will be long gone when the Grim Reaper arrives. But the seeds are being sown. How can we restore "wise decisions"in a democratic environment?

James Brown

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2015, 10:36:32 PM »
Having played Sunningdale this year with my father as a present for his 70th birthday.

I quite liked the 1st hole as an opener it was a gentle challenging opening hole and underrated by many. The 2nd was a par 4 not a par 5!
 


When I played the course the second was a par five.  Has that changed? The length certainly could make it a par four but the terrain made getting there in two difficult.

Number two has always been a par four as far as I know.  Bobby Jones wrote about it that way. 

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2015, 10:52:05 PM »
Having played Sunningdale this year with my father as a present for his 70th birthday.

I quite liked the 1st hole as an opener it was a gentle challenging opening hole and underrated by many. The 2nd was a par 4 not a par 5!
 


When I played the course the second was a par five.  Has that changed? The length certainly could make it a par four but the terrain made getting there in two difficult.

Number two has always been a par four as far as I know.  Bobby Jones wrote about it that way.  

I don't think that is the case. I know it was a par five when I played it.  I will see if I can round up my scorecard. I looked at the scorecard on the website and two is a par four. I felt one was an easierar five the number two.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 10:57:29 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Paul Gray

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2015, 02:43:38 PM »
"Home to wise decisions". What makes a Club make wise decisions? Why is the governance of US clubs different? I belong to two (of four) clubs where horrible governance is destroying each. It doesn't happen overnight and those responsible will be long gone when the Grim Reaper arrives. But the seeds are being sown. How can we restore "wise decisions"in a democratic environment?

It's really not just a US problem. Education, education, education. I am more convinced than ever that until clubs set higher standards by way of setting certain knowledge criteria for club officials they problem will go on as it they have for well over a century.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 07:12:13 PM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Sean_A

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2015, 07:41:53 PM »
Having played Sunningdale this year with my father as a present for his 70th birthday.

I quite liked the 1st hole as an opener it was a gentle challenging opening hole and underrated by many. The 2nd was a par 4 not a par 5!
 


When I played the course the second was a par five.  Has that changed? The length certainly could make it a par four but the terrain made getting there in two difficult.

Number two has always been a par four as far as I know.  Bobby Jones wrote about it that way.  

I don't think that is the case. I know it was a par five when I played it.  I will see if I can round up my scorecard. I looked at the scorecard on the website and two is a par four. I felt one was an easierar five the number two.

I am pretty sure the 2nd was a par 5 in 1926 when Jones qualified for the Open with his famous 66, 68.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

James Brown

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2015, 09:36:59 PM »
Having played Sunningdale this year with my father as a present for his 70th birthday.

I quite liked the 1st hole as an opener it was a gentle challenging opening hole and underrated by many. The 2nd was a par 4 not a par 5!
 


Good discussion.  http://www.advancedballstriking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=3343


When I played the course the second was a par five.  Has that changed? The length certainly could make it a par four but the terrain made getting there in two difficult.

Number two has always been a par four as far as I know.  Bobby Jones wrote about it that way. 

I don't think that is the case. I know it was a par five when I played it.  I will see if I can round up my scorecard. I looked at the scorecard on the website and two is a par four. I felt one was an easierar five the number two.

I am pretty sure the 2nd was a par 5 in 1926 when Jones qualified for the Open with his famous 66, 68.

Ciao

Paul Gray

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2015, 07:19:25 PM »
Just for a bit of trivia, my 1997 strokesaver shows it as a par 5 from the champ tees, a par 4 from the men's tees and a par 5 from the ladies tees. My working speculative theory then is that technology has now turned that 5 in to a 4 for the pros.   
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Philip Gawith

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2015, 11:25:29 AM »
Although Sunningdale's GCA creds are beyond argument, not everybody is a fan of the club. I have a good friend who has been a member for many years who says he finds it a pretty unfriendly place. Put differently, not everyone, given a choice, would put it first on the list of heathland clubs they wanted to join.

Philip

Jeff Bergeron

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2015, 05:16:26 PM »
Philip, IMHO this should be a criteria in the rating of Golf Clubs. The 'experience' is critical to a great club.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2015, 04:26:54 PM »
Philip - I played a match recently against a well known club and they find their annual match at Sunningdale just a little too intense. It's always cool playing behind a member four ball containing two ex-Ryder cup players (Queenie & Torrence) but to me, off the course, there always seems like "a little something" is missing.
Cave Nil Vino

David Davis

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Re: Sunningdale Old Course profile is posted ...
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2015, 04:28:36 AM »
Nice review Ran.

Certainly agree that a day of 36 at Sunningdale is wonderful and the best UK heathland experience on offer albeit an expensive one if you don't know a member (at least you can still play it). BUT, is it the best complete heathland experience? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that for me 27 at Morfontaine has the upper hand. Taking into consideration the complete experience mind you.
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