[Ronald Montesano]

Sean,

I don't know beyond playability what the intent is. I imagine the lot was always wooded until the early 1990s, when they carved out the course. They are not averse to eliminating famous/infamous trees; there is a tree on the 8th hole whose branches have been trimmed back to allow for playability. The course plays quite wide on most of the driving holes. #4, #5, #7-#9 are all played to very wide landing areas. Only #1 and #3 have any sense of unwanted intimacy, and not much at that (like middle school intimacy.)

[Ronald Montesano]

Hole #5-Dunes Club







Hole #5-Whitinsville Golf Club

[Terry Lavin]

Why must greens be visible from tees?

While I wouldn't say "must", I do think seeing a green on a dogleg can create the line of charm/line of instinct choice...its about temptation.  Create a bowling alley effect and that temptation is likely removed...and thus may be created in another way or perhaps not at all.  That said, perhaps the designer's vision was to have those choices limited.  Thats okay too, but I prefer temptation. 

Ciao

I agree with this sentiment.  The 7th hole at Dunes, which will shortly be put up, is a dogleg left par four hole with out of bounds to the right.  Standing on any of the tees, one cannot see the green, because there is a huge stand of trees (maybe 400) on the left that blocks the view of the green.  I'll acknowledge that some huge bombers that can also hit it dependably high can go over the dogleg, but those players are in the distinct minority.  I've contended for years that we should cut down all but a handful of trees over there, in order to give players a view of the green and to invite the risk/reward analysis as they stand on the tee box.  If you go for it and still hit one of the trees, you'll be playing out of an unforgiving sort of sandy hazard, but if you make it, you'll only have a simple pitch to the green.  As it is now, 95% of the players on the tee have a single option: hit it 200 yards to the middle of the fairway toward the "barber's pole" and hit a mid-iron into the green.  Doesn't mean it's a bad or an easy hole, it just means it lacks fun, visibility and options.

[Cliff Hamm]

Trees... am no defender of trees, but the tree on 4W is needed.  This is not a difficult hole except for the green.  It is not long.  The tree can be driven over if long enough. It thus provides risk/reward and adds interest to the hole by forcing one to think how to attack the drive.

The worst tree at Whitinsville are those on 8  off the tee.  Without the trees a long hitter could attack the bunker on the left.  The tree forces one to lay out right.  Discussed this with the gm/pro a few years back.  He indicated the only reason it stays is to protect golfers on the tee at 9.  Interesting  perhaps that the tree on 4 makes one think and provides options, while the one on 8 takes away options.

[Paul Gray]

......Both look like they are worth a go, but I wonder if frustration would set in at Dunes.  

Ciao

Absolutely.

Dunes looks like it could induce a tantrum, not because it's bad, far from it, but because it's underperforming so badly.

[Ronald Montesano]

......Both look like they are worth a go, but I wonder if frustration would set in at Dunes.  

Ciao

Absolutely.

Dunes looks like it could induce a tantrum, not because it's bad, far from it, but because it's underperforming so badly.

Inconceivable

[George Pazin]

Let's talk more about the 8th hole at the Dunes Club. The tee box is elevated, and you have to hit a ~220 yard shot to a reasonably narrow target. You'd like to be on the left side of the fairway off the tee so that you can easily hit your second shot to the right side of the fairway. The second shot should be no more than ~190 yards and far enough right to avoid the massive trees that encroach the left side of the fairway. Then, you'll have just a short wedge shot slightly uphill to a blind green that's protected by mounds and subtle internal undulation. Distance control is important on the third, because a miss short could hit the mounding and go anywhere. Even though I don't love tight three-shot holes in general, every shot is fairly interesting, and the hole is just beautiful.

I really love this description. As I read through it, I was expecting the conclusion to be that the hole was simply too demanding - yet you clearly like it a lot. Well done, sir.

[Mark Bourgeois]

......Both look like they are worth a go, but I wonder if frustration would set in at Dunes.  

Ciao

Absolutely.

Dunes looks like it could induce a tantrum, not because it's bad, far from it, but because it's underperforming so badly.

Inconceivable

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Paul Gray]

......Both look like they are worth a go, but I wonder if frustration would set in at Dunes.  

Ciao

Absolutely.

Dunes looks like it could induce a tantrum, not because it's bad, far from it, but because it's underperforming so badly.

Inconceivable

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Colloquialisms may have something to do with it.

Which word?

[Ronald Montesano]

......Both look like they are worth a go, but I wonder if frustration would set in at Dunes.  
Ciao

Paul...inside joke from The Princess Bride...When I don't agree with someone's assessment, I default to Vizzini.
Absolutely.
Dunes looks like it could induce a tantrum, not because it's bad, far from it, but because it's underperforming so badly.

Inconceivable

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Colloquialisms may have something to do with it.
Which word?

Paul...inside joke from The Princess Bride. When I disagree with an assessment, I default to Vizzini.

[Paul Gray]

......Both look like they are worth a go, but I wonder if frustration would set in at Dunes.  
Ciao

Paul...inside joke from The Princess Bride...When I don't agree with someone's assessment, I default to Vizzini.
Absolutely.
Dunes looks like it could induce a tantrum, not because it's bad, far from it, but because it's underperforming so badly.

Inconceivable

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Colloquialisms may have something to do with it.
Which word?

Paul...inside joke from The Princess Bride. When I disagree with an assessment, I default to Vizzini.

Thanks for the clarification.

Can't say I've seen/ can remember it.

[Ronald Montesano]

Hole #6-Dunes Club

I haven't made commentary yet, but I will break the vow on this hole for both courses. As with the 2nd at Dunes, this par three has two corridors. The difference could not be more pronounced. The Blackberry (or Raspberry, or Huckleberry, I forget which) tee is immediately behind 5 green (marked with an exploding "T") and makes the hole play as a pitch shot. New tee, trees removed, result awesome. The other tees, down to the left, make it a top-echelon par three in my estimation.









Hole #6-Whitinsville Golf Club

I had no idea that a brook crossed in front of this hole. One of those holes that, on first play, is everything over its latter half. Once played, you realize how important position off the tee is.

[Ronald Montesano]

Hole #7-Dunes Club

This hole also has two tees. They don't impact its play as much as #2 or #6. The other tee is left of this vantage point, hugging the tree line.










Hole #7-Whitinsville Golf Club

For some reason, my shots from the tee have disappeared. As a result, you have shots from green 1, over green 6, to green 7. Tees for 7 are directly behind green 6. At the end, you have a green profile from fairway 6.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Mark B.-
A good amount of fairway widening has occurred at W'ville and an equally significant amount of green expansion. Gil and the former superintendent were in possession of the original DR renderings of each hole, and used them as their guide when developing the W'ville master plan. By way of example, the fairway bunkers on #5 were once completely surrounded by rough. They are now completely surrounded by fairway. I belive that this was also the case with the bunker on #3.

Stephen,

Thanks for this. Great to hear about the fairway restorations. Question: the widening of 5 fairway, has that occurred since the ground and aerial pictures in this thread? I look at this aerial comparison and see more restoration needed!
http://golfcoursehistories.com/Whit.html

[Ronald Montesano]

God almight, Mark, that's astonishing. Not just the random plantings of trees, but the pond along the golf course. Now, it's all marsh. How the heck did they do that?

[Stephen Pellegrino]

Mark B-
That is a great before/after image, and I agree that there is more fairway expansion that could occur. I would imagine that budgets at W'ville are tight, and I know that the progress which has been made there took place over a 10 year period. Slow and steady would seem to be the mantra, and I hope that their vigilance going forward matches what they have shown in the recent past.

Another great area of fairway AND green expansion is on the left side of both #7 green and #9 green. The expansion of fairway and green works in concert with the topography, allowing play to flirt with the left bunkers to gain running access to left or center pins. Truly fun shots to play, and shots that must have been rendered moot when long grass and smaller greens ruled the day.

To answer Ron's comment, I'm going to hazard a guess that the change in the water to the right of #9 from pond to brackish/bog has to do with the industry that spawned W'ville's creation. I believe that W'ville (town) is a mill town, and as such, several dams seem visible in aerial photographs. I wonder if these dams, stagnanted the water, and allowed for the gradual transition from open water (the pic from the 30's) to a more vegitatated bog (2013). Just a guess...

Finally, while I only have a few rounds at W'ville under my belt, I agree with the comment about the trees just off #8 teebox being the most noxious on the property. While some may argue for the safety they provide, they dictate the lines of play far more than in acceptable IMHO.

[Ronald Montesano]

Off the 7th tee at Whitinsville, you get this glow at the proper time of day:

[Ronald Montesano]

Hole #8-Dunes Club

The most controversial/challenging hole at Dunes. Goes from wide open spaces to claustrophobia to blind approach. Also has the option of goin way left, into fairway #5, and coming in from that side (as you will see in the last image.)










Hole #8-Whitinsville Golf Club

Also a challenging/controversial hole, also due to the constriction-by-tree approach. When I was there, I saw some collegiate golfers take three metals and rope-hook them greenside. The driveability of the hole exists, but not in a direct line to the green. I've lost my images from the tee, so we'll need donations from the ephemera or a reliance on the overhead (which I will modify for description.)



Here is the same overhead, with three arrows. The left one indicates the noxious, safety tree that pushes all play to the right. Punishes the left-to-right player. The middle arrow is the short bunker seen from the first fairway. The right arrow is the far fairway bunker, also seen in the image below from the first fairway. The dashed line offers a conservative route. The farther left, the longer the marsh carry. If you can right-to-left on command, you'll love this tee ball.


This image is from the first fairway, looking across hole 7, to the 8th drive zone and run uphill to the green. The left arrow marks the tee deck. The middle arrow marks the short fairway bunker. The right arrow marks the far fairway bunker.

[Cliff Hamm]

Not the best picture of 8 but hopefully it helps.  Tee is elevated and this is taken from the bottom of the hill in front of the tee.

I might add that in looking at the old picture these trees were not there.  The one on four appears to be though.

[Tom_Doak]

Ronald

Thanks.  Save your pix and lets hope someone else does a tour next year.  A before and after would be interesting. 

Do you know if the tree removal is to represent the original design or if there is a change of philosophy?

Ciao

When The Dunes Club was built, Mr. Keiser used to say he liked to preserve trees ... after all, his business was Recycled Paper Greetings.  He has come around to the idea that trees are not a great feature of golf courses slowly but surely over the years.

He had come so far that his original concept at Sand Valley was to take down 100% of the trees, but cooler heads have prevailed there.

[Terry Lavin]

Keiser has told me that he could imagine Dunes Club without ANY trees, but methinks he was spouting some hyperbole. He has come a long way. Two summers ago, I told him that a bunch of us were calling the area around the third green "Santa's Village" because of the abundance of pine and spruce. "Oh no," he exclaimed, "they're all coming down."  At the end of the season, the chainsaws were humming.

[Ronald Montesano]

Keiser has told me that he could imagine Dunes Club without ANY trees, but methinks he was spouting some hyperbole. He has come a long way. Two summers ago, I told him that a bunch of us were calling the area around the third green "Santa's Village" because of the abundance of pine and spruce. "Oh no," he exclaimed, "they're all coming down."  At the end of the season, the chainsaws were humming.

There were trees around the third green? Where?

Judge Terry, what's the story behind the branch on #8 that came down?

[Terry Lavin]

About twenty spruces were behind the green and between the left side of the green and the 4th tee


The tree on 8 ( actually two) are about 100 from the green and the location renders 75% of the fairway virtually useless. The thought was the trees would prevent a big hitter from getting on in two, but they're just as frustrating to the people trying to get home in regulation. The big hitters now just bomb it to the 5th fairway where they have a look at the left part of the green. It's really become a bit of a joke.

[Ronald Montesano]

Hole #9-Dunes Club

This hole has a fairly easy drive (perhaps not apparent in the photos) owing to the voracious nature of that greenfront bunker. If it doesn't get you, it's in-law behind the green will. And the green is really tough to putt. Talk about a wolf in sheep's clothing.








Hole #9-Whitinsville Golf Club

It's God's grace that this is the final hole at Whitinsville. If it came anywhere else, triage would delay play. I guess if you carry the ball a controllable 290, you can look to the right of the slope. If not, you shouldn't.








This brings my task to a close. I don't know that I would have undertaken it if the courses had not been 9 holes in span, or if the thread-starter hadn't been a well-thought of guy in this realm. Arking the holes can be tedious if we're dealing with 36. I'll leave that to another.

[Sean_A]

Ronald

Thanks.  Save your pix and lets hope someone else does a tour next year.  A before and after would be interesting. 

Do you know if the tree removal is to represent the original design or if there is a change of philosophy?

Ciao

When The Dunes Club was built, Mr. Keiser used to say he liked to preserve trees ... after all, his business was Recycled Paper Greetings.  He has come around to the idea that trees are not a great feature of golf courses slowly but surely over the years.

He had come so far that his original concept at Sand Valley was to take down 100% of the trees, but cooler heads have prevailed there.

Tom

Thanks.  Well if its trees he likes he has plenty of em'...imo they are the most prominent feature of the layout in the pix.  Its good to hear presumably cool trees will be kept...there must be some excellent specimens among the green walls. 

Ronald - thanks for the pix.

Ciao

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