[Randy Thompson]

Tom,
Juan Dentone...like david states...he did the original six at another property in 1896...was hitting balls and they were marking landing areas...found a great site for a punch bowl green and explained that concept to everybody involved ect. He gets full credit for the new nine in 1903 and  the seciond nine in 1915 and also handled the changes in 1917. But also like David and yourself states, there was a lot of other talent around and I am sure he had imput from that base of talent, just as every living architect today does. Talked to the guy today that did the history book for the club anniversary back in 2000 and he is presently doing one for Olivos for there what ever anniversary.

[David Edel]

Randy,

Thanks for setting me straight.  I have the book your talking about and it is packed away from my move to Austin.  My memory is shot from years of abuse, so excuse my lapse.  I should get the facts straight before I take on this bunch.  I mean that in a good way.  The Mackenzie plan is an original period blueprint of the his redesign of the property, and to my knowledge the only surviving copy.  I know some people have copies of this plan in Argentina.  My guess is the corrections were shot down by the board and he did not bother to create a formal drawing as he did with El Boqueron, El Nautico, and the Golf CLub of Uruguay.  This plan has lighter markings of the original green and teeing locations, and darker markings for his corrections.

#1 is the same
#2  goes uphill  following teh fairway contour of #1 and looks to be a short par 4 around 300 yards, well bunkered.
#3 goes down hill slightly and the back up hill and finishes up at the area near the old 3rd tee.
#4 follows the line of the old 3rd and appears to be unchanged much.
#5 par 3 at an angle teeing off near the fence above the old 3rd green.  The green is about 60 yards down the old 4th fairway against the fence
#6 Starts halfway down the old 4th fairway and goes at a slight angle uphill for the tee shot then parallels the new 4th with the green about halfway down the new 4th or old 3rd.
#7 tees off back and below the new 6th green up hill to a green just below the old 3 tee.
#8 is a long par 3 downhill towards the clubhouse at a 45 degree angle to the middle of the property.
#9 Tees up on the other side of one green near the old 18 tee and finishes up about 25 yards below the 1st tee.
#10 tee up between the 9th and 18th greens heading downhill over the wood faced bunker used on the 18th original to a green just above the old 17th green.
#11 is a long par 5 leading straight down the property
#12 is a long par 4 headed back to the clubhouse just above the new 11th.
#13 is above the the new 12th heading back to the far part of the course ending  up midway through the property about 200 or less yards from the old 4 fence line.
#14 is a par 3 heading at an angle downhill to near the old 4th green.
#15 is a par 4 teeing up on the fence line below the new #14 near the fence line on the oceanside of the property.  This hole parallels the ocean .
#16 is a par 3 paralleling the ocean.
#17 is a longish par 4 that finishes just below the old 10th green.
#18 is against the fence about 80 yards ahead of the old 11th tee, then heads at an angle up to the plateau to an area right of the walled uphill bunker on the old 18th.  There is a second line of play that tees up on the old 10th green.  The 18th green has been enlarged with two levels .

I hope this gives some insight to those who know the course.  There are 64 bunkers on the Mackenzie plan which come into play for other lines of play on the holes that parallel each other.   My guess is that Mackenzie believed the finishing holes should work along the ocean for a dramatic finish.

Those of you who know the property understand that it is land that is benched for the most part into 3 layers.  Most of the course is on the top two benches, with the 10th and 11th down large swale at beach level.  Since this is a totally new plan that was never executed  I feel that it has merit to find a new location similiar to the original land elsewhere and utilize this plan .  Anybody have thoughts on this matter?  As it resembles almost nothing of the original I do feel this stinks of bad fish?

Again, sorry for the factual errors on my previous post.  Mike DeVries and Jim Urbina have both seen the plan and might provide some insight to what they have seen.

David

[David Edel]

Oopps,

I meant to say "does not stink of bad fish".

David

[Tom MacWood]

At what club or clubs was Juan Dentone the professional?

Is my understanding correct that Dentone's tenure as a pro began in the mid-1890s and lasted until the 1920s?

[David Edel]

Tom,

I would have to look in the book, but I believe he was the professional until the middle 40's as was succeded by Morro Castenon. 

David

[David Edel]

Tom,

I was just going through the 1941 Golfer Argentino and Juan Dentone at the age of 74 stepped down as the golf professional at Mar del Plata golf club.  He was followed by Aurelio (Moro) Castenon.   I believe that Moro came from San Andres golf club.  I met with Moro in 2002 when he was 94 or 95, great guy. 

I also ran across a plan in the same book for a 9 hole private estate course by Dentone.  Looked really good. 

Just wanted to clarify that it was not in the middle 40's as I originally posted.

David

[Tom MacWood]

I recently found this in Golf Monthly (3/1914), an old British golf magazine:

"Mungo Park, younger brother of Willie Park, has returned to Musselburgh after being engaged as professional in the Argentine for over ten years. Park speaks highly of the possibilities of the game in the Argentine, where they have excellent country for laying out links. Mr. VG Scroggie, one of the well-known families of Carnoustie golfers, was largely responsible for introduction of golf to the country. The chief course is at San Martin. It was laid for the Buenos Ayres GC and is 6300 yard. Park was the constructor at the cost of £10,000, and on one green alone, £1000 was spent. they have now fifteen men keeping the course in order, with six machines and two motor mowers."

Its my impression John Park was in Argentina for about the same length of time, maybe longer.

[MClutterbuck]

I recently found this in Golf Monthly (3/1914), an old British golf magazine:

"Mungo Park, younger brother of Willie Park, has returned to Musselburgh after being engaged as professional in the Argentine for over ten years. Park speaks highly of the possibilities of the game in the Argentine, where they have excellent country for laying out links. Mr. VG Scroggie, one of the well-known families of Carnoustie golfers, was largely responsible for introduction of golf to the country. The chief course is at San Martin. It was laid for the Buenos Ayres GC and is 6300 yard. Park was the constructor at the cost of £10,000, and on one green alone, £1000 was spent. they have now fifteen men keeping the course in order, with six machines and two motor mowers."

Its my impression John Park was in Argentina for about the same length of time, maybe longer.

Tom, the course you refer to was built in 1907 and the club changed its name to San Andres Golf Club. I have copies of the original Mungo Park plans and if people are interested can post them in a few weeks.

[Niall C]

MClutterbuck

Sadly Tom is no longer with us having passed away a couple of years ago, although if he's looking down on this thread I'm sure he'd like to see the Mungo Park plan as would the rest of us.

With regards to MacKenzies plan of Mar del Plata, he published that in one of the UK golfing mags along with several other designs he did in Argentina. One day, if I ever learn to post images...........

Niall

[MClutterbuck]

I am sorry about Tom, I did not know.

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