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Paul Richards

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Skokie CC
« on: August 27, 2003, 09:31:32 PM »
Just played Skokie CC (again) yesterday.

Ron Prichard did a wonderful job with his restoration of this classic course.

Don Cross is an excellent super and the head pro, Robert Powers, is very much into the heritage of this golf course and is an excellent spokesman, as is Don.

Can someone please explain to me why this golf course isn't on somebody's top 100 list?

This has to be one of the most glaring deficiencies of these lists!!

Keep in mind that this course made Golf Digest's top 100 list in 1995, when it was a mish-mash of different styles by a couple different architects!  

Today, it is a much, much stronger golf course and deserves to be rated very highly.  Why doesn't it get the proper respect?
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

GeoffreyC

Re:Skokie CC
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2003, 10:10:36 PM »
Paul

I have not played Skokie but I've heard good things.

Why don't you tell us what its attributes are. Variety, greens, hazards, routing etc.

Then tell us which courses on any list it should replace and why.

Thanks
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Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Skokie CC
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2003, 11:18:53 PM »
Mr. Shivas,

The Floor is Yours...
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You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Patrick Hitt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Skokie CC
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2003, 06:23:46 AM »
Paul,
My guess is the piece of property is the biggest reason for Skokie's lack of respect. Once one plays off the glacial ridge the course looks flat. I haven't played everywhere in Chicago, but few places make a player hit so many different shots than Skokie. When raters put Rich Harvest Farms above Skokie, it tells me not to put much stock into ratings. We;ll ahve to figure out which looks better when Beverly is finished.
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A_Clay_Man

Re:Skokie CC
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2003, 10:00:49 AM »
HAs Skokie pruned any more trees? I was there two years ago and a few came down during our round. Plus, the flatness is probably too big a factor for the modern critic to get over, as Pat eludes to.

Chicaoland in general is plagued with the flat unintersting tag. It really should make places like Skokie and Beverly stand-out even more because of their genius, without much help from mother nature. (other than the glaciers that cleared the canvas)
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ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Skokie CC
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2003, 10:34:45 AM »
Shivas,
 I thought you needed the tightness to keep you from overswinging ;).

Regarding Skokie what are the greens like? Are they flat like the terrain?

What did Prichard bring back or do to the course?
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Patrick Hitt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Skokie CC
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2003, 11:41:12 AM »
Ed,
Ron Pritchard's work was centered on restoring the greens to the original fill pad size, reworking bunkers to flat bottoms, recapturing fairway - especially around bunkers, and reinstalling bunkers that were lost while removing a few others that were added for the US Am. medal play in 1983. There was some tree removal - the process is ongoing. Some new championship tees were added as well. 2 greens that had been reworked over the years were also replaced and recontoured.

The greens are quite a mix of styles. The Langford Moreau greens are very contoured and characterized by 1-3 foot rises on the edges of greens that roll lower into the greens' centers - they look very much like potato chips. The Ross greens are also a mix of push ups sloped back to front with tiers or rises internally - and smaller crownish lay of the land  greens that have wonderful subtle moves. There is a Rees green, 2 Lohmann greens, and a Beldelow that may be the best on the course.
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ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Skokie CC
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2003, 12:06:23 PM »
Patrick,
 Thanks for the info. How cohesive are the greens as a whole? The reason I ask is I played at Denver CC earlier and the year and many architects have had their hands on the course over the years, but the course as a whole is still quite cohesive. The Maxwell greens are quite distinctive, but the rest are fairly homogenous. So how would you characterize the fit of the various greens to the whole?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2003, 12:07:12 PM by ed_getka »
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Patrick Hitt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Skokie CC
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2003, 12:22:07 PM »
It is hard for me to say how cohesive they are. I am a little too familiar with them. I think as a group they work just as the course does. The mix of push ups, low crowns, and hilltops is similar to the mix of bunkering scale. The course requires alot of different shots to gain advantages - each green requires similar thought in approach, recovery, and putting. If I am doing my math correctly the greens range in size between 4500 and 8500 square feet or so. Variety is the norm. I do think it works.
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Matt_Ward

Re:Skokie CC
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2003, 08:26:33 PM »
Geoff --

If you like Plainfield then you will equally love Skokie. I would rate Skokie just a shade behind Plainfield because the green contours are just a tad better and more sophisticated.

I can't disagree with Paul because it is sooooooooooo true. For starters -- I would dump Shoreacres from the top 100 -- excuse me -- I'm sorry -- it's in the top 50 in the USA. ::) Rich Harvest Links is a fine course for the versatility aspect but does that merit a top 100 selection as stated by GD?

Skokie gets little respect and for once the Chicago gang have a legitimate beef about what is missing with raters who can't fathom the quality that ooooooooooooozes from the pours of such a wondeful landscape.

At Skokie the routing is so well done as each hole simply drops you so near the next one. The player must work the ball from both sides and there is a solid juxtaposition of power and accuracy required. And there are holes that are more than the tired repetition of playing SW and PW to most of the holes.

How Skokie is left off is a reflection on raters because in my mind any fair minded person who has played it will see a golf course that has all the key parts. Kudos to the club in bringing Ron Prichard aboard.
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Skokie CC
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2003, 10:29:29 PM »
As mentioned in another thread, Skokie is a better golf course today than Shoreacres, IMHO.

Skokie is also a better golf course than Rich Harvest Links, which currently resides on the Golf Digest top 100 list.
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Skokie CC
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2003, 10:30:49 PM »
Matt:

Plainfield is a bigger, slightly better course than Skokie, IMHO.  However, Plainfield hasn't suffered the same underappreciation that has been shown to Skokie since it has been redone.
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Skokie CC
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2003, 10:32:48 PM »
Adam:

For the record, Skokie has improved NOTICEABLY in the tree-management department since I played it last summer.  When there last, I was able to pick out MANY trees that needed to be removed.  The visit on Tuesday showed that a vast improvement has been made in this department over the past 365 days.
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

A_Clay_Man

Re:Skokie CC
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2003, 09:20:16 AM »
Paul- Thanks, Hopefully Beverly will speed up their plan after Oakmont's story has been carefully exploited.  :o
How big of a debate is the Bev v. Skokie?  I think i'd need to play each course 4-5 hundred times more to make an educated opine. ;D
.
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Skokie CC
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2003, 04:36:15 PM »
Adam:


The debate goes much like this from most people who are very familiar with both courses:


today - Skokie is the better course (post its restoration)

tomorrow - Beverly (post restoration) has better terrain, superior routing and a more interesting mix of holes. Therefore, most agree that it will be the better course of the two.  I concur.

However, with the caveat that, in many ways, it's like being asked "which do you prefer - $1,000,000 or $1,000,001?

They will both be something special!!!
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

A_Clay_Man

Re:Skokie CC
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2003, 05:53:02 PM »
I wonder how much of the continuity that Beverly has will make it just that much better?

 Yes, the extra elevation changes at Beverly make for some blindness and challenge but I was thinking about how the one architect versus the many that Skokie has on it's pedigree may be the biggest reason it will be superior.

Just speculating of course.
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Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Skokie CC
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2003, 06:11:01 PM »
Paul,
You maybe the world's greatest homer. I can't wait to see Beverly when completed. I'm concerned with the close proximity of many of the holes, and how they'll play once restored. It will be a fun debate once the restoration is complete. I'm sure I'll need to do a lot of research with clubs to figure this one out.
That said,  neither Skokie or Beverly will compare to Barton if and when it is ever restored. ;D
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Skokie CC
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2003, 07:54:01 AM »
Adam:

I have no doubt that the "continuity" factor at Beverly is superior because of the major influence of Ross as opposed to the "team" of architects at Skokie.

Shooter:

It's easy to be a "homer" when your home course is so strong!  And getting stronger!!  ;)

BTW, research with the clubs begins in the spring!!!  ;) ;)
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Skokie CC
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2003, 07:58:41 AM »
Shooter:

How's this for a "homer"?


I'll hold up Beverly's final four holes versus just about any four in the world for toughness, strategy and solidness.  

Unfortunately, we don't have an ocean in Chicago for the vistas ....
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Skokie CC
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2003, 10:09:45 PM »
Back to the main point of this post:

Wake up Raters!

Skokie CC belongs on the top 100 lists!!!!!!!!!!!!
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG
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