Why is The Old considered so much better than The New (or The Eden)

[Thomas Dai]

I'd like to see (& play) a composite 18-hole course made up of the Old, the New, the Eden and the Jubillee.
Start at TOC 1st, include TOC 11th, finish on TOC 16th-17th-18th and for rest use the better holes from the remainder of the other three courses all within some appropriate routing.
atb

Having pondered a bit more maybe a composite of 1, 4, 11-18 from TOC plus as many of the better holes from the remainder of the other three courses as can be incorporated within an appropriate routing.
atb

[Mark Bourgeois]

Peter

I think it's because the Old is reality and the New is shadows on the wall. Or the Old contains the thoughts, which the New took and put into things. Or, to put it in a statistical sense, the Old was the outcome of a random process that comprised the 1 percent, or possibly even the one-hundredth percent over in the extreme end of the distribution tail, whereas the New was the outcome of a conscious process, of efforts to take lessons learned and formulate them. TOC just happened to become a great course. On that ground, the potentialities happened to, just happened to, manifest themselves in their highest and best possible forms. This could have happened elsewhere or nowhere, but it happened to happen there. In contrast, the New HAD to happen where it did.

Was the Old the "Old" before the New came along?

[JC Jones]

As usual, most posts have missed Peter's point entirely with the exception of Mark B, the resident mad genius.

In response to Mark B, wouldn't then any course subsequent to the Old necessarily fall short?  Such that no course could ever be as good as the Old?

Perhaps that is what you are saying and you're comfortable with that.  Pretty depressing though knowing that we peaked in golf course architecture before we really even started.

[Rich Goodale]

As usual, most posts have missed Peter's point entirely with the exception of Mark B, the resident mad genius.

In response to Mark B, wouldn't then any course subsequent to the Old necessarily fall short?  Such that no course could ever be as good as the Old?

Perhaps that is what you are saying and you're comfortable with that.  Pretty depressing though knowing that we peaked in golf course architecture before we really even started.

JC

A lot of courses built/improved subsequent to the Old are superior to the Old.  Mark B knows that, too.

Rich

[Peter Pallotta]

Mark, JC (and Ally) - yes, thanks, that is the main point I was asking about. With good points made by you and others, though, I'm still wondering about it. Mark very nicely and subtly posits/describes the supposed difference, i.e. the reality vs the shadow, with the Old the manifestation of a (largely unconscious/random) process that might have -- and then did -- lead to the course we know, while the New was the product of specific and conscious and time-bound decisions. And yet: man did have a hand in The Old -- e.g. widening fairways, tweaking greens -- and (I am presuming) those hands consciously recognized the wonderfully unstructured/un-proscribed quality and ethos of The Old. Okay, as Ally suggests, no one would've tried to recreate the Old's greens (a key aspect), but those responsible for the New could have recreated the unstructured qualities, no?  Of course, maybe I'm presuming too much, and the 'unstructured' quality that we praise today was not all that noticed/praised back then.

Peter

[Mark Bourgeois]

Peter

Hope this isn't too repetitive:
1) the Old potentially could have happened anywhere, but because it happened where it did, the possibilities of the New became far more constrained;
2) these unstructured qualities really were not possible on the Old because Old Tom et al did not know they were designing in an unstructured manner. He / they had very limited templates or design principles to use and to react to. They were creating not just a course but rules. The structure (of the New and elsewhere) came on in response to the fact of the Old.

If there's a point it's how can another TOC be built. Perhaps by combination of volume and ignorance.

Rich, if there are better courses it's because they had TOC to push against.

[Niall C]

Peter

FWIW I've heard it said by some locals that the New/Jubilee (take your pick) is/are better than the Old. And that's from folk who play them all regularly. I'm not sure the locals have quite the same misty eyed reverence that visitors have, which is not to say they don't respect the history, but to them it's one of the local courses.

Personally I think it's a bit like comparing apples and oranges in comparing the Old to the other courses. The Old has evolved and continues to do so but it hasn't had anything like the changes the other 3 have had over the last 100 years. Consequently a lot of the holes are half par holes which I think most would agree are more interesting. Throw in the fact that a lot of the Old course holes are instantly recognisable even to those that have never been before and I think it only natural that infrequent visitors will prefer the Old.

Niall

[Rich Goodale]

Rich, if there are better courses it's because they had TOC to push against.

......and all the other courses featured in Hutchinson's book on links courses, and Myopia and Garden City and maybe even Foulepointe.  There are many better courses today because there are better land forms and better architects dealing with these land forms and better equipment and other technology available to the architects and the builders.  We can stil learn a lot from the Old Course, but not if we approach her with bended knee and touching the forelock....

[Bill_McBride]

If the New wasn't next door to the Old, it would be much more highly regarded.  As it is you play the first eight of the New sneaking glances at the Old on your left.  On its own I think the New is really good after a prosaic start.  5 is a really good par 3 with that amazing swale in the green.  I love 6 with the skyline of the old town behind a convoluted green.  Eight is fun par 5 with the peekaboo green behind the mound.  Nine along the Eden estuary is super and ten is a sturdy par 4 from the elevated tee.   The back nine par 3s are good.   I like the New a lot.

Since I heard the Jubilee isn't much fun I have avoided it.   Thoughts on the Jubilee?

[Bill_McBride]

Bill: Jubilee is definitely fun. Well worth a go and not a ball buster.

I think I heard it is more narrow and easy to lose a ball when the wind is up.  The locals say it's the most difficult of the Links Trust courses, but maybe that was pre Castle. 

[Gary Slatter]

FWIW I've heard it said by some locals that the New/Jubilee (take your pick) is/are better than the Old. And that's from folk who play them all regularly.

Niall, For what it's worth...well, I don't think it means much! How many of them know a jot about architecture? Certainly not ones that are suggesting the Jubilee is better than the old!!!

I never heard that the Jubilee was as god as the Old, but the group that I played with certainly did not mind the Thursdays we had to play the New instead of the Old.  Both are great golfing experiences.
Template holes, are they really necessary?

[John Connolly]

Jock Hutchison, St. Andrews native and Chicago club pro for many years, won the Open Championship at the Old Course in 1921 after taking a steamer from the States. A few months before that victory, an article appeared in Golf Illustrated, April 1921, where he was featured. The article states that Jock felt the course "was not a real championship test." The quote below is from the article.

"There are glorious traditions surrounding old St. Andrews, but they are merely traditions, no longer held in reverance by the younger players who have imbibed the newer ideas of this changing world, although the older players still pay homage to them."

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1921/gi151x.pdf

And yet TOC remains in the forebrain (and perhaps hindbrain) of golfers the world over to this day. How very enigmatic.

[Gary Slatter]

FWIW I've heard it said by some locals that the New/Jubilee (take your pick) is/are better than the Old. And that's from folk who play them all regularly.

Niall, For what it's worth...well, I don't think it means much! How many of them know a jot about architecture? Certainly not ones that are suggesting the Jubilee is better than the old!!!

Although many of my friends may not know a lot about architecture, they know what they like about golf!  Don't insult the golfers.

[Jason Topp]

Melvin Morrow has posted some information on Facebook suggesting that the New Course was quite good when originally designed but then was altered by Harry Colt in the 20's.  It would be interesting to see how it was altered.

[Ken Moum]

Bill: Jubilee is definitely fun. Well worth a go and not a ball buster.

You need to play it again. I've played it twice, both times in the typical stiff crosswind.

It's the least fun course I have seen in Scotland, but I have only played 20-some courses.  I figured after I played it last year that if I'd tried to play stroke play by the ROG I'd have been DQed for not being able to finish several holes. Giving myself several 7s just to write something on the card, I shot 103.

The day before I shot 80 at Elie.

K

[Bill_McBride]

Melvin Morrow has posted some information on Facebook suggesting that the New Course was quite good when originally designed but then was altered by Harry Colt in the 20's.  It would be interesting to see how it was altered.

Don't mess with OTM courses if you want to stay on Melvyn's good side.....even if you're Harry Colt!

[Matthew Essig]

Bill: Jubilee is definitely fun. Well worth a go and not a ball buster.

You need to play it again. I've played it twice, both times in the typical stiff crosswind.

It's the least fun course I have seen in Scotland, but I have only played 20-some courses.  I figured after I played it last year that if I'd tried to play stroke play by the ROG I'd have been DQed for not being able to finish several holes. Giving myself several 7s just to write something on the card, I shot 103.

The day before I shot 80 at Elie.

K

Jubilee was quite fun even with a stiff cross breeze. If you miss in the wrong places, it is a ball buster. If you manage the golf ball, it is enjoyable. Second best course there.