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TEPaul

Re: Golf's greatest seduction?
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2003, 08:13:15 AM »
MikeB said:

"The #2 seduction is playing the same equipment as the Professionals, or the perception that they are playing the same clubs, balls, etc.  Many years ago, two-piece balls such as Top-Flite, Pinnacle and Molitor were longer balls than the Titleist Balatas or other professional balls on the market.  Distance didn't matter then because you were playing the same clubs and balls as the professionals."

MikeB:

Are you sure you mean that? Maybe most golfers felt they were playing the same balls as the professionals when they used pinnacles and the professionals were using balata type balls but if the golfing public really thought they were using the same type balls they were either very misinformed or they simply didn't understand the vast differences in the two types of balls. Maybe the golfing public is so misinformed about balls that they actually think the "One set of B&I rules and regs" meant everything was exactly the same. That's obviously completely untrue and always has been.

As for equipment, I sure don't deny that to some extent there may be some connection with handicap golfers wanting to play the same equipment as pros and the manufacturers have always tried to highlight that fact somehow.

But again, my experience is possibly other than a driver most golfers play what works best for them despite what they know or perceive pros use.

I virtually never saw handicap golfers of any type with a 1 iron in their bag or 2-3 or even a 4 iron. And I never saw any pros (until recently) with a wood with more loft than a 4 wood in their bags. Most handicap golfers have always had an interesting array of lofted woods in their bags completely different than pros.

The one major fallacy or misunderstanding that I've always found among regular golfers--maybe to the tune of about 90% is they seem to be under the impression that they should be able to spin and suck back a two piece hard ball (like they see the pros doing) not really understanding that even a professional can't really do that!



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

DMoriarty

Re: Golf's greatest seduction?
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2003, 12:25:39 PM »

Quote
As I see it, if a guy has a faster swing speed than his opponents, and he can control the dispersion on his ball, then he should be at an advantage. Hasn't being longer always been an advantage? I don't thing it would be fair to handicap long hitters by making them use a ball which flies a less proportionate distance for them.
As I understand the change in distance, it is these golfers who have reaped a much greater proportion of the advantage so far.   I am not talking about taking away their advantage, just putting it back in proportion with everyone else.  
Quote
what I fear will happen, is that they will put a maximum limit on how far the ball can travel, and then advancements in ball technology in the not too distant future will allow those with slower swing speeds to hit the ball the same distances as those with higher swing speeds. I think that should be a big concern. Right now the manufacturers are concentrating on how to make the ball go further for the elite players in the world. What happens when a limit is put on how far those guys can hit it, and they start concentrating on creating a ball that goes further for the shorter hitters.

I don't know a whole lot about physics, but is it totally out of the realm of possibility that in 10 years a guy with a 120 mph swing speed is hitting his ProV1x 310 yards, while his opponent, who has a 90 mph swing speed his hitting it the same distance with his ProV5xxx? This new ball won't go any further for the guy with 120 mph swing speed, but it will for a guy with a 90 mph swing speed.  Maybe it’s not possible though.

I'm no physicist either, but why not have a graduate standard,  X yds carry at 140 mph, X-Y at 120 mph, X-2Y at 100 mph, X-3Y at 80 mph?  This would solve your problem.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: Golf's greatest seduction?
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2003, 12:39:50 PM »
David,

You have to stop this before you cause real damage to the game....With each yard of reduced distance you new ball grasps it provides a fraction of a yard of increased width.  A 300 yd drive that is reduced to 280 yds will fall in a tighter area simply because it does not travel so far off line...a ball intentionally designed to hit a wall aerodynamically will fall softly to the ground nearer the middle of the fairway...an so on and so on.....Now to protect par architects are forced to bring fairway bunkers more towards the middle.....plant more trees and grow more rough....please, please, please leave the adjustments to courses simply in the realm of length...where all we have to do is turn our backs on the ugliness and move on up.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

DMoriarty

Re: Golf's greatest seduction?
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2003, 12:45:38 PM »

Quote
David:

No, I didn't say that---and I don't believe that. I do not believe reining in the ball exclusively for the top caliber players (in competition) or the pro players will hurt them, and I don't even believe that reining in the ball for all golfers will hurt anyone either.
Tom, all I meant was that we could limit the fastest swingers in a manner that does not shorten the drives of the shorter hitters, all in the same ball regulation.  This solves a lot of your problems with the transition to a new ball, and quite a few of your concerns about hurting the manufacturers as well.    
Quote
And that is that golf has never, that I'm aware of, actually backed up the legal distance of balls and impliments! Throughout golf's history the combination of balls and impliments has ALWAYS gotten longer and longer--never shorter.
But they almost did, and recently too.  The proposed COR regulation would have rolled back a limitation in 2008.  Instead they set it lower now.  However, I think the limitation will be rolled back by the R&A in 2008.
Quote
In a sense it would be the first time a rollback occured and it could be likened to attempting to put the genie back in the bottle to a degree. Would golfers, all of whom had experienced greater absolute distance, struggle to enjoy as much hitting pure shots shorter distances than they had previously?Certainly with the sophistication of technology today if all balls and equipment of all manufacturers were right at some new rolled back distance limitation how could any of them logically claim that their product was longer than anyone else's? And so then how could the manufacturers really buy into the concept that what really is important in golf is not absolute distance but the fact that any golfer could hit the ball relatively farther than any other golfer?
How would the situation be any different than what we have today?  We have a distance limitation and have had one for a long time.  Yet the manufacturers don't seem to have any trouble distinguishing themselves or convincing customers that their ball is best for particular golfers.  
Quote
Most everyone who's discussing that ball on here is under the impression that that ball is longer than any other ball in ABSOLUTE distance terms!
 
I disagree, we were discussing the amount by which today's discussion is longer than in past years.  That is a relative comparision.  Of course we are using actual distances to make the comparison, but how else would we do so?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Golf's greatest seduction?
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2003, 03:24:36 PM »
David:

When you say;

"But they almost did, and recently too.  The proposed COR regulation would have rolled back a limitation in 2008.  Instead they set it lower now.  However, I think the limitation will be rolled back by the R&A in 2008."

That may be true but personally COR is a concept that I believe to be negligible in distance enhancement at best. I just don't think COR is valid in real distance enhancement. I think the vast majority of the recent distance enhancement is the golf ball. I'm no tech person so I certainly could be wrong about that.

You also said:

"How would the situation be any different than what we have today?  We have a distance limitation and have had one for a long time."

That's true too but aren't you overlooking the fact of the "optimization" of the golf ball if that could be called the rolling together of the distance characteristics of the old hard ball (Pinnacle) and the old soft ball (balata type) that essentially produced this new age ball the pros and good players are now using en masse?  

Everything they used then and now has always conformed but the fact that the old soft ball had to have been well below the ODS is the most important fact. The new age combination ball is obviously not well below the ODS limit and so consequently is responsible for much of the recent distance spike amongst good players and pros.

Why did all the good players use the soft ball back then even when understanding that they were probably giving up a good deal of distance by not playing a Pinnacle type ball?

All I'm saying is return golf B&I rules and regs to that atmosphere and situation where golfers had that interesting choice of two distinct types of performance balls. We know that worked and we know why it worked. And we also know that the "two type of ball golf world" all fell within the ODS and worked well enough for anyone.

Why try to reinvent something here? All I'm saying is if there's a need for a rollback--then rollback to what we know works. We know it works because it used to work just fine before things got out of control in the last ten years. I really do feel that happened primarily because the manufacturers combined the two distinct types of balls. That's the problem in my mind or enough of the problem to represent the avenue to a reasonable solution. We know how they did it so it's a snap to undo it. The hardest part is probably just getting them to agree to do it but if they did agree we'd be back to something everyone understands and knows from experience works. It worked fine then and it can work again! That is if the manufacturers will agree and golfing public will allow the genie of the last ten years to go back in the bottle.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf's greatest seduction?
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2003, 09:03:29 PM »

Quote
Are you sure you mean that?


Probably not ... I was disagreeing with myself as I was typing it ... ;)

I would agree that the driver is the one club that the everyday golfer would copy a pro on.  However, equipment in general, specifically the brands promoted as "professional" (as opposed to the K-Mart Blue Light specials) is taylored to spend more money on technology that may provide fractional improvement in your score.  What would lower your handicap more, a new set of Callaways or $ 700 in lessons and range balls?  Therefore, I will modify my statement to say that have the latest and greatest equipment is a seduction.

[/quote]

The one major fallacy or misunderstanding that I've always found among regular golfers--maybe to the tune of about 90% is they seem to be under the impression that they should be able to spin and suck back a two piece hard ball (like they see the pros doing) not really understanding that even a professional can't really do that!

[/quote]

Very true for a couple of reasons:

 - 90% of the golfers can't hit the green with a full iron on a regular basis  ;)

- and 90% of the golfers can't see far enough to tell if there ball has backspin ...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

DMoriarty

Re: Golf's greatest seduction?
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2003, 11:48:51 PM »

Quote
That may be true but personally COR is a concept that I believe to be negligible in distance enhancement at best. I just don't think COR is valid in real distance enhancement. I think the vast majority of the recent distance enhancement is the golf ball. I'm no tech person so I certainly could be wrong about that.
I don't know the science, but what you are saying sounds correct to me.  I view it as more of a symbolic change.  The USGA was proposing (and R&A doing) the unthinkable-- taking clubs out of golfer's hands.  This might be even more remarkable if indeed the difference the rule makes is negligable.
Quote
Why try to reinvent something here? All I'm saying is if there's a need for a rollback--then rollback to what we know works. We know it works because it used to work just fine before things got out of control in the last ten years. I really do feel that happened primarily because the manufacturers combined the two distinct types of balls. That's the problem in my mind or enough of the problem to represent the avenue to a reasonable solution. We know how they did it so it's a snap to undo it. The hardest part is probably just getting them to agree to do it but if they did agree we'd be back to something everyone understands and knows from experience works. It worked fine then and it can work again! That is if the manufacturers will agree and golfing public will allow the genie of the last ten years to go back in the bottle.
I don't disagree that it would be nice to just simply reverse the clock, but I just don't think that is very likely.  It seems it would entail dictating certain specific design specifications to manufacturers and stifle their creativity and potential competitive advantage.  However, why not stick to a distance limit but do so in a manner that encourages companies to create diversely performing golf balls.

Briefly, why not regulate the carry distance, then let the golfers and manufacturers try to figure out a way to balance feel and control with a desire for distance?   Some might prefer to give up feel and control by playing a ball that flies low, and bounces and runs.  Others might prefer the control of having the ball stop where it is hit. Like your ideal situation of years past.  

This would allow the manufacturers to continue to make lots of money.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Golf's greatest seduction?
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2003, 02:31:57 AM »
DMoriarty said;

"I don't disagree that it would be nice to just simply reverse the clock, but I just don't think that is very likely.  It seems it would entail dictating certain specific design specifications to manufacturers and stifle their creativity and potential competitive advantage.  However, why not stick to a distance limit but do so in a manner that encourages companies to create diversely performing golf balls.
Briefly, why not regulate the carry distance, then let the golfers and manufacturers try to figure out a way to balance feel and control with a desire for distance?   Some might prefer to give up feel and control by playing a ball that flies low, and bounces and runs.  Others might prefer the control of having the ball stop where it is hit. Like your ideal situation of years past."  

David:

What I'm proposing and what you said there is very close. Diversely performing golf balls is what we used to have before this new age (combined ball) was created by all the manufacturers in the last ten years.

When we used to have diversely performing golf balls professional type players never used the two piece distance balls. And very few high handicappers seemed to use the soft balls the pros used.

Frankly, that diversity produced a situation where professional caliber players had to be giving up probably a larger amount of distance in favor of control (most particularly for control around the green) than many realized. One might even reasonable say that the tour caliber player may have been giving up about as much distance as they have recently gained when the soft and hard ball were combined and they started using that new age ball en masse.

At the very least it would be interesting to know what the ODS of those old soft balls was at 109 MPH. That alone could give manufacturers and regulators something to go by! It would not surprise me at all to find that regulators might not know today what those balls did distance-wise at 109mph relative to the hard ball. They may only know that they passed the conformance test and were somewhere under the ODS limitations. That very well may have been the extent of the USGA's "pass/fail" mentality of that time.

But I think ideas such as ours David are basically just searches for some framework that would bring excessive distance back under control. There're obviously numerous frameworks and methods to acheive them that would accomplish that end but the first thing to do is to get the necessary people--ie regulatory bodies, manufacturers and the golfing public to want to do that--to want to go in that direction.

That in itself is sort of a separate issue that would require a certain amount of persuasion regarding many people as to why that would be benefical. Certainly the longterm integrity and health of the game seems to be the most important reason probably mostly hinging on the preservation of golf's playing fields (architecture). This latter thing we've talked about ways of doing on the phone.

Golf's equipment manufacturing sector is an interesting animal in its ability to progress and advance their products. They never really seem to intentionally break the regulatory bodies rules (except for Ely Callaway). They sort of come up with things that are undefined under the regulatory bodies rules and regs and then the regulatory bodies have to decide what to do about it.

A ball ODS limitation certainly accomplishes a good deal in limitiing manufacturers from going crazy in the name of length but we can certainly see that some pretty odd things have happened with the ball in the last ten years despite those limitations. It appears that very few foresaw what could happen even within the present ODS limitation framework which has been in effect for years. Frank Thomas appears to have seen it coming but was unable to convince the necessary people of what it's effects would be.

What the manufacturers did was certainly not illegal or non-conforming within that existing and present framework of the ODS limitations but nevertheless it was quite amazing. I'd suspect that the manufacturing sector is immensely proud of themselves for what they accomplished--basically finally combining the distance characteristics of the hard ball and the control characteristics of the soft ball into a single ball. For years many obviously didn't think that was possible or at least weren't on the lookout for its effects.

If one looks at ball technology and production in the last 40-50 years that breakthrough was huge, probably just as significant as the two piece ball breakthrough about 40+ years ago that was immense--one of the real technological breakthroughs in the history of golf balls! Maybe you're too young to remember its impact but that was the first time that golf equipment manufacturing produced a ball that a huge segment of golfers could use successfully that didn't cut. That in itself was huge. The manufacturing sector was really proud of themselves for accomplishing that!

The irony is (probably in retrospect) that good players never used that huge breakthrough ball. Not for about 30+ years until it got combined into the type of ball they wanted to use in the last ten years.

So I don't know if it's reasonable or feasible to ask the manufacturering sector to basically give up or give back that huge breakthrough that they accomplished in the last ten years and obviously spent untold millions on researching and developing. But I do know if they would it would definitely create a solution to this present distance spike.

But I guess the idea here is to come up with a baseline and try to then imagine all the conceivable ways it could be exceeded and then try to legislate to prevent that before it happens.

It appears what's happened here is that something actually came to pass before anyone could really foresee properly it effects. It was always actually legal within the existing ODS framework and now it's out there and how do the regulatory bodies get it back or get it out of the hands of golfers.

Probably a good analogy to what's happened with this combined new age ball might be the example on another thread of Tiger Woods driver. Somebody said with a steel shaft he can send a ball at 170MPH but with a graphite shaft he can send a ball at near 200MPH.

Tiger has so far chosen to use steel and the lower ball speed in the name of control. That's a good analogy to the old soft ball (control)/hard ball (more distance) of the situation we used to have with the good players--until the manufacturers combined the two characteristics.

How long do you think it's going to take Tiger's manufacturer to give graphite shafts the type of control at a 200 mph ball speed as Tiger now has with steel at 170?

It may not take them long. Are the regulatory bodies prepared for that with their ODS rules and regulations? Are they aware of what might be impending with overall distance if that transpires? I don't know but maybe not!



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Ville Nurmi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf's greatest seduction?
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2003, 03:08:59 AM »
Rich had problems with Irish measurements.
Roayl Dublin had an easy solution. They changed 150 yards markers to 135 meters. It is close enough I think.

Ville
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf's greatest seduction?
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2003, 06:34:19 AM »
Tom P:  Clearly you haven't looked in my golf bag.

There is no question people love to hit the ball a long way.  That's the reason Nicklaus' Cayman ball had no chance of succeeding.

However, I do not believe it's true that golfers would have any less fun, much less give up the game, if the ball was rolled back 10%.

Ask yourself this:  are you having way more fun playing golf today than you did ten years ago?  And, if so, is it because of the ball going further??

The truth is that the only reason we are going through this is that the equipment companies are spending millions to sell us "new and improved" products, and we are suckers for their advertisements.  Or our opponents are, and we don't want to be outdriven by them!

If others in your Sunday foursome didn't have any Pro V1x balls, you'd never miss them.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Golf's greatest seduction?
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2003, 08:23:05 AM »
TomD said;

"However, I do not believe it's true that golfers would have any less fun, much less give up the game, if the ball was rolled back 10%.

Ask yourself this:  are you having way more fun playing golf today than you did ten years ago?  And, if so, is it because of the ball going further??"

TomD;

I must not have made myself as clear as I meant to. I'm very much of the theory that distance is mostly a relative fascination and seduction (to one's opponents and fellow competitors) not an absolute distance thing.

I thought I did remark somewhere above that I feel my father and grandfather probably had just as good a time playing the game as I do and they certainly were not as able to hit the ball the distances most do today.

I, however, am sort of an unusual animal (certainly compared to 10-20 years ago). It doesn't really seem that I hit the ball any longer than I ever did (which wasn't anywhere anyway) despite all these high-tech balls and equipment. It leads me to believe possibly there isn't that much to it or else I'm falling apart at about the same rate that technology is improving and advancing.

I'm still one of the best around at sneaking up on long par 4s before they see me coming though!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

noonan

Re: Golf's greatest seduction?
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2003, 05:28:46 PM »
Golf's biggest seduction:

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf's greatest seduction?
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2003, 06:48:36 AM »
Alright class, ready for your cups of coffee to fall asleep?

As the USGA has demonstrated with their test facilities, the physics of golf balls has not changed much in 20-30 years.  The ProV1s respond to a calibrated imparted force (Iron Byron-type machine) a little more robustly than does old Wilson Acuschnets...I believe Iron can get 5 maybe 10 more yards out of the ProV1 for a driver impact of 100mph clubhead speed.

The physics of a club have also not changed much over the years.  (Although the sweet spot is much larger reducing the severity of mis-hits)   The material restitution and elasticity properties of the modern clubhead face (responsible for the transferring of forces) have improved a modest amount over the old persimmons... maybe responsible for a few more driving yards for a comparable 100mph clubhead speed.

What has changed for the pros is clubhead speed.  The kinetic energy imparted to an object is given as 1/2(mass)*(velocity squared).  If I can suddenly increase my clubhead speed from 95mph to 125mph I nearly double the force I impart to the ball!  The ball will respond by going a 60-80yds further.

We morals (the 90-100mph golfers) are living off a modest technologic advantage over years ago.  We're seeing 10-20 more yards in our drives because of equipment.  The pros through physical training are all now able to swing at 120+mph dramatically amplifying the modest material/design improvement in balls and club.

There is a limit and we may have hit it.  Manufacturers will be able to continue to tweek the ball and club to get tiny improvements (transparent to all but the pros).  Unless the pros can figure a way to increase their clubhead speeds to, say 145mph (steriods?  Hulk Hogans?), I believe the distance issue has reached its limit.

JC

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf's greatest seduction?
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2003, 01:39:14 PM »

Quote
If you tell a pro that he/she can tee off with a cannon legally, I bet 95% of the guys would use one and the other 5% would end up using one shortly thereafter.  

You've reminded me of something:

Here's the abstract for U.S. Patent No. 5,522,594 ("BALLISTIC IMPELLER GOLF CLUB''), granted June 4, 1996 to Roy H. Taylor and D. James Duncalf of Fremont, Calif.: "A golf club for impelling a golf ball without swinging. The club uses expanding gas generated by an exploding charge to move a piston having an attached strike plate against a golf ball, impelling the ball down the fairway toward the green. The club is prepared for use by inserting an explosive charge and cocking the firing mechanism. The club is fired by placing the head of the club a short distance behind the ball, aiming the ball by aligning the striking plate with the ball, releasing a safety, and triggering the firing mechanism.''




« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf's greatest seduction?
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2003, 02:29:57 PM »
In most areas of athletic achievement that don't involve a stopwatch, it is a simple enough matter to keep moving the bar -- especially if your competition is being held outdoors.

Not so in golf. It's a very costly and complicated procedure to keep moving the hole farther from the tee. That's the practical reason to be opposed to ever-inscreasing distance.

But there's a more basic reason why no one really wants unlimited distance. At some point it becomes irritating to have outstripped your playing dimensions. For instance, you don't want your dart ending up in a guy's beer in the next room.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice