eliminating collars

[jim_lewis]

I noticed that several courses in the South had problems with their collars last year. I also have heard that some courses are eliminating collars altogether and growing their Bermuda surround right up to the edge of the greens. Can anyone name some clubs that have eliminated collars? Do they still mow a strip around the greens to putting height, or do they just maintain the height of the surround and allow slow moving putts to bump up against the "collar" and stop?

[Carl Rogers]

my only critique of the course I know best is Riverfront is this very subject, meaning their irregular and difficult maintenance.  i will take a pic next week.

[Tom_Doak]

If there is fairway height grass surrounding the green then there is no need for a collar.  But if you are going from green to rough there has to be a buffer, both to stop funky lies and to have a place to turn the greens mower around.

[Ian Andrew]

It's become very common up here, when growing new greens in, to not establish a collar in the first year. Can't say I understand why, but the collars are often a problem area on new greens. Going without initially seems to work. Then they establish a collar in year two.

Not sure of that relates to what you asked .. but just in case.

[Ben Hollerbach]

The Wissahickon and St. Martins courses at Philly Cricket Club do not have any fringes. the green height transitions straight into 3" bluegrass. It makes chipping a very interesting task, especially when the ball is only 1" off of the green chipping down hill. The Wissahickon course will be on display here shortly for the Senior Players and they will be playing the course with out a fringe cut around the greens.

[Josh Stevens]

I concur, what does a collar achieve but to add one more mowing height and thus more cost.

Surely just having green and not green saves on maintenance

[Sean_A]

I find it disturbing that clubs would wish to reduce the effect of gravity with rough tight up to greens.  It gets straight back to the corseted look with rough pinching inside of bunkers to create an alley way to the green.  It doesn't make any sense to me to do this unless there is an agronomic/maintenance reasons for it.  I have asked many times as to why this practice is popular in the US (especially midwest and east coast)...never once received a meaningful response.


Ciao

[MClutterbuck]

The trouble with collars is really just trouble with the outer part of the green, for various different reasons. Eliminating the collar by cutting it to fairway height will not eliminate those problems, it will enhance them sometimes.


Eliminating the collar by reducing the size of the green will only bring those problems further in.


The problems with collars does not normally have to do with the height of cut. Among other reasons, collars sometimes receive a more aggressive herbicide program to avoid contamination to greens and becuase the higher cut allows for it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Oh, most clubs still require collars....on greens and shirts. LOL

[Jim Franklin]

Philly Cricket and Baltimore CC eliminated the first cut when Keith Foster restored the courses. Since Tillie didn't have first cut or collars when they were originally designed, both clubs eliminated them. Personally, I think Tillie would have evolved and put a first cut in, but we will never know.

[Anthony_Nysse]

The problems with collars does not normally have to do with the height of cut. Among other reasons, collars sometimes receive a more aggressive herbicide program to avoid contamination to greens and becuase the higher cut allows for it.

Cant say I have hear this reasoning before, though know they types of herbicides that would be used. Contamination of poa can and does occur anywhere through the green.

[jim_lewis]

Thanks for the responses. I would still like to know about some more courses that have no collars and have extended the "rough" to the edge of the greens.

[Jamey Bryan]

Jim, hopefully Wade Whitehead or Lester George will pitch in here....   Ballyhack has a routine I can't remember exactly, but which eliminates fringes, has fairway cuts to the entrances to the greens, then sometimes transitions to a "first cut" in the backs.  While I really love Ballyhack, I am not a fan of this maintenance.  Members practice "bellying" a wedge for the funky lies which result....


Jamey

[Brian Bowman]

I played a Tom Bendelow course today, which incorporated a very closely mowed collar and then a first cut beyond that around all the greens, playing it every day would allow different variations of short game options dependent on what cut you are in

[Heath Perrott]

Can't say that collars are a prolific part of many Australian courses, as with what Tom said, fairways and their heights are most often maintained up to the edge of the putting surface. I have noticed collars are a significant aspect of green design in the States... Am I right?


I was wondering... is this purely a design decision for a particular course or maybe a 'cultural' aspect of design that dictates courses that have greens with collars are considered more 'elite'?


Or does it have more to do with the types of grass/es used rather than either of the above?

[MClutterbuck]

The problems with collars does not normally have to do with the height of cut. Among other reasons, collars sometimes receive a more aggressive herbicide program to avoid contamination to greens and becuase the higher cut allows for it.

Cant say I have hear this reasoning before, though know they types of herbicides that would be used. Contamination of poa can and does occur anywhere through the green.

Yeah, Poa is one of the contaminants that is sometimes treated more aggresively on the collars than the rest of the green. In fact, I have seen courses where the collar was made 2x or 3x as wide during some time to fight poa with higher dosage of herbicides. In many cases you get bad collars for some time after.

[Anthony_Nysse]

The problems with collars does not normally have to do with the height of cut. Among other reasons, collars sometimes receive a more aggressive herbicide program to avoid contamination to greens and becuase the higher cut allows for it.

Cant say I have hear this reasoning before, though know they types of herbicides that would be used. Contamination of poa can and does occur anywhere through the green.

Yeah, Poa is one of the contaminants that is sometimes treated more aggresively on the collars than the rest of the green. In fact, I have seen courses where the collar was made 2x or 3x as wide during some time to fight poa with higher dosage of herbicides. In many cases you get bad collars for some time after.

I'm well versed in this, but most Supts maintain the collars in the same fashion as greens. It makes sense, but this is also why green surrounds are sodded and treated. A lower HOC allows for my stress on a plant, therefore that's where contaminates and stress develop or in this case-poa. I higher HOC equates to less stress. Poa is going to get in in many different way, but because of a LOWER HOC, this is why we usually see it in greens before fairways.

[MClutterbuck]

The problems with collars does not normally have to do with the height of cut. Among other reasons, collars sometimes receive a more aggressive herbicide program to avoid contamination to greens and becuase the higher cut allows for it.

Cant say I have hear this reasoning before, though know they types of herbicides that would be used. Contamination of poa can and does occur anywhere through the green.

Yeah, Poa is one of the contaminants that is sometimes treated more aggresively on the collars than the rest of the green. In fact, I have seen courses where the collar was made 2x or 3x as wide during some time to fight poa with higher dosage of herbicides. In many cases you get bad collars for some time after.

I'm well versed in this, but most Supts maintain the collars in the same fashion as greens. It makes sense, but this is also why green surrounds are sodded and treated. A lower HOC allows for my stress on a plant, therefore that's where contaminates and stress develop or in this case-poa. I higher HOC equates to less stress. Poa is going to get in in many different way, but because of a LOWER HOC, this is why we usually see it in greens before fairways.

Tony, I agree with you and you of course know a lot more than I do. As you said, the collar having a higher HOC is less stressed. What I am trying to say, all things equal, the collar should be healthier than the green. Same grass, same greens mix, same everything, higher HOC.

This thread started with the following statement: "I noticed that several courses in the South had problems with their collars last year. I also have heard that some courses are eliminating collars altogether and growing their Bermuda surround right up to the edge of the greens."  What I am trying to say is that if collars have problems that the greens do not, it should be because they receive a different treatment than the greens. Either herbicide contamination from the surrounds, or actual higher dosage of herbicides (example I have seen and explained above), or less water when hand watering, or heavy rotation and compaction with mowers or a combination of these and many other factors.

What follows to me is that eliminating collars is most probably not a solution to the problems people see in collars. You will probably end up dragging some of those problems to the edge of the green. So the discussion about eliminating collars I believe should not be based on agronomy but rather on architecture.

[John Connolly]

We removed collars during a recent green expansion program at our club. We have at most medium sized greens and our consulting architect rightly indicated fringe removal would allow an increase in pinning area.  Not many who play them now seem to think much of it anymore.

[Powell Arms]

Thanks for the responses. I would still like to know about some more courses that have no collars and have extended the "rough" to the edge of the greens.

Jim, at the Wissahickon course at Philly Cricket, the "rough" was not extended, rather, the greens expanded.  While there was concern at first over being stuck against the curb or rough, that concern has been shown to be largely irrelevant in reality.  The expanded putting surface adds about 20% green area, and allows for some wicked pin positions at edges and in peninsulas of greens.  Those areas would not be pin-able with a collar.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Jim, hopefully Wade Whitehead or Lester George will pitch in here....   Ballyhack has a routine I can't remember exactly, but which eliminates fringes, has fairway cuts to the entrances to the greens, then sometimes transitions to a "first cut" in the backs.  While I really love Ballyhack, I am not a fan of this maintenance.  Members practice "bellying" a wedge for the funky lies which result....


Jamey

Ballyhack does have some fairway hight chipping areas in green's surrounds, but few. I played there yesterday with three GCAers and there were many times we off only a foot off the green and in tall grass. I like a combination of both. I guess the question is how much of each is a good balance?

[Jay Mickle]

I recall being told that when Mid Pines was redone and the greens were converted to Mini Verdi a collar of Tiff Eagle was installed to limit the incursion of common Bermuda into the greens.

[John Connolly]

I doubt there are more instances of balls resting against the rough in fringeless greens than on fringed greens. It is often suggested but my guess is if it were actually quantified, it would occur with equal frequency.

[Tom_Doak]

Two other reasons why collars often suffer maintenance-wise:


1.  If they're outside the greens mix, instead of inside it, the soils are not as conducive to growing short turf.


2.  There is a lot of wear on collars, from turning the greens mowers around right there.  At the high-end clubs I've seen guys bring rubber mats along with them and move the mats so they can turn the mower around on the mat.  It looks like good exercise for them to do this at the same time they are running the greens mower.

[Brian Chapin]

We eliminated collars around our greens 6 years ago as part of our green expansion program. Its a bold look and I agree with Powell that it allows for hole locations that were never possible before. We found that by lowering the height of cut on the rough to 1.5" the balls resting on the edge were not much of an issue.


I find the maintenance to be the same or easier. Aside from the normal struggles of any green expansion program, we haven't seen any additional stress or turf loss related to not having collars. We mow the greens right to edge of the land forms and don't have any trouble from turning the mowers. We also don't have to worry about constantly monitoring and/or marking the transition area of green to collar to prevent unwanted shrinkage or expansion of the putting surface.


I'm glad to see this trend starting to catch on.