Gozzer Ranch

[Ted Sturges]

Thank you Ran for the review and pic set of Gozzer (do you ever work?).  I have several thoughts after viewing this course, which may be the first Fazio course to make my "must see" list.

1.  When did Fazio change to make his courses look more like Coore and Crenshaw and Tom Doak's work?  The generally "natural look" of this course seems to be a departure from the stuff he did 20 years ago. 

2.  Did his style "evolve", or has he reacted to the success of Tom, Bill and Ben? 

3.  Or...does his work change with the taste and talent level of his design associates?

4.  I remember reading a quote many years ago that he could build a great course in a parking lot.  Well...he couldn't have built Gozzer in a parking lot!   

Comments?

TS

[Ben Sims]

Ted,

I think Fazio's more recent work in the western US can be attributed to the texture available to him. In many places, he had to create not only golf holes, but the landscape and accompanying texture that frames those golf holes. He had to do no such thing at a place like Couer d'Alene.

[Tom_Doak]

Ted:

Tom Fazio has never set foot on any of my courses, to my knowledge, and maybe not any of Bill and Ben's, either.

However, a couple of his young associates have seen and played a lot of our work, and I take it that we've had some influence on what they are building.

I'm curious how Ran compares Gozzer Ranch to Rock Creek [which is up for his review, next].  It's funny that some of the things he cites as "critical" to the success of Gozzer, like sand capping, is something we deliberately avoided doing at Rock Creek.

[PCCraig]

Ted:

Tom Fazio has never set foot on any of my courses, to my knowledge, and maybe not any of Bill and Ben's, either.

However, a couple of his young associates have seen and played a lot of our work, and I take it that we've had some influence on what they are building.

I'm curious how Ran compares Gozzer Ranch to Rock Creek [which is up for his review, next].  It's funny that some of the things he cites as "critical" to the success of Gozzer, like sand capping, is something we deliberately avoided doing at Rock Creek.

Tom Doak,

Why did you avoid sand capping Rock Creek?

[Joel_Stewart]

A few years ago I asked Fazio what was his toughest course to construct?  My thought was Estancia.

To my surprise he said it was Gozzer Ranch.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Ted:

Tom Fazio has never set foot on any of my courses, to my knowledge, and maybe not any of Bill and Ben's, either.

However, a couple of his young associates have seen and played a lot of our work, and I take it that we've had some influence on what they are building.

I'm curious how Ran compares Gozzer Ranch to Rock Creek [which is up for his review, next].  It's funny that some of the things he cites as "critical" to the success of Gozzer, like sand capping, is something we deliberately avoided doing at Rock Creek.

Tom Doak,

Why did you avoid sand capping Rock Creek?

Interesting the hear this response. I have never seen anything wrong with sandcapping if you can afford it.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak,

Why did you avoid sand capping Rock Creek?

1.  I think it's a bad standard for other courses, which I'm against on general principle.  Did you miss it at Rock Creek?  Did you even know we hadn't done it?

2.  We were working with some awesome contours in the fairways at Rock Creek, and we didn't want to lose them by sand capping.  In the end, we did lose some of them where we had to pick out boulders the size of small cars, but to us that was preferable to making an artificial edge all the way around every single hole.  The hard part about sand capping [from a practical standpoint] is how to stop.

[Jim Franklin]

I am curious to read Ran's review of Rock Creek as well. I just played both again, and RCCC still maintained its high standing in my golf view, but Gozzer actually rose a little. My friends liked it a little more, but RCCC is still the one in my view.

[Tom_Doak]

I am curious to read Ran's review of Rock Creek as well. I just played both again, and RCCC still maintained its high standing in my golf view, but Gozzer actually rose a little. My friends liked it a little more, but RCCC is still the one in my view.

I'll bet a dollar he does not compare the two courses in his reviews.  You may have to wait until Volume 3 of The Confidential Guide to find out where he really stands. 

[PCCraig]

Tom Doak,

Why did you avoid sand capping Rock Creek?

1.  I think it's a bad standard for other courses, which I'm against on general principle.  Did you miss it at Rock Creek?  Did you even know we hadn't done it?

2.  We were working with some awesome contours in the fairways at Rock Creek, and we didn't want to lose them by sand capping.  In the end, we did lose some of them where we had to pick out boulders the size of small cars, but to us that was preferable to making an artificial edge all the way around every single hole.  The hard part about sand capping [from a practical standpoint] is how to stop.

Thanks for your response. I can't say I missed it at Rock Creek, primarily because I wasn't looking for it (even if I knew what I was looking for to begin with) nor did I ask. I thought that maybe you had sandcapped other courses' you've designed, but that something at Rock Creek prevented you from doing so.

I can't imagine drainage is much of an issue at Rock Creek, considering the course pretty much plays up, then down, a hill?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tom Doak,

Why did you avoid sand capping Rock Creek?

1.  I think it's a bad standard for other courses, which I'm against on general principle.  Did you miss it at Rock Creek?  Did you even know we hadn't done it?

2.  We were working with some awesome contours in the fairways at Rock Creek, and we didn't want to lose them by sand capping.  In the end, we did lose some of them where we had to pick out boulders the size of small cars, but to us that was preferable to making an artificial edge all the way around every single hole.  The hard part about sand capping [from a practical standpoint] is how to stop.

Thanks for your response. I can't say I missed it at Rock Creek, primarily because I wasn't looking for it (even if I knew what I was looking for to begin with) nor did I ask. I thought that maybe you had sandcapped other courses' you've designed, but that something at Rock Creek prevented you from doing so.

I can't imagine drainage is much of an issue at Rock Creek, considering the course pretty much plays up, then down, a hill?

I get the impression that a lot of sites TD works on have a sandy loam to begin with. Sand capping probably isn't needed.

[Tom_Doak]

I get the impression that a lot of sites TD works on have a sandy loam to begin with. Sand capping probably isn't needed.

That's true, but there are lots of architects who would have insisted on sand capping at Rock Creek without any regard to the cost.  If you can't afford the best ...

[Jim Franklin]

I am curious to read Ran's review of Rock Creek as well. I just played both again, and RCCC still maintained its high standing in my golf view, but Gozzer actually rose a little. My friends liked it a little more, but RCCC is still the one in my view.

I'll bet a dollar he does not compare the two courses in his reviews.  You may have to wait until Volume 3 of The Confidential Guide to find out where he really stands. 

I can't wait for Volume 3.

[Jim Nugent]

I am curious to read Ran's review of Rock Creek as well. I just played both again, and RCCC still maintained its high standing in my golf view, but Gozzer actually rose a little. My friends liked it a little more, but RCCC is still the one in my view.

I'll bet a dollar he does not compare the two courses in his reviews.  You may have to wait until Volume 3 of The Confidential Guide to find out where he really stands. 

He may not compare them directly, but pretty clear to me which one he prefers.  One of the (many) clues comes in the last sentence of his RCCC profile: "What Mr. Foley and Doak and his crew have accomplished here is extraordinary and as good as the game has to offer."

[Jim Franklin]

I am curious to read Ran's review of Rock Creek as well. I just played both again, and RCCC still maintained its high standing in my golf view, but Gozzer actually rose a little. My friends liked it a little more, but RCCC is still the one in my view.

I'll bet a dollar he does not compare the two courses in his reviews.  You may have to wait until Volume 3 of The Confidential Guide to find out where he really stands. 

He may not compare them directly, but pretty clear to me which one he prefers.  One of the (many) clues comes in the last sentence of his RCCC profile: "What Mr. Foley and Doak and his crew have accomplished here is extraordinary and as good as the game has to offer."

Completely agree.

Gozzer is pretty good too though. Definitely two of my favorite places to hang out.

[Carl Rogers]

My impression of the pics is that it still is a Fazio course, very picturesque and pastoral.  TD & Team are edgy by comparison and work reconciling contradictions, not blurring or eliminating them.