[JHoulihan]

Today I played at The Sanctuary in New Lenox, IL. It was quite a haul from downtown Chicago, but overall good experience. The green were in average/just below average shape with more pitch marks than preferred. Hole #9 was by far the biggest challenge tee shot of the day. This brings me to my topic. What holes do you know of with quite a distance between mens and championship tees? Here is my short list of which I am sure many will add to.

Par 3
Rock Hollow GC
Peru, IN
Hole #8
Rock tees = 173
Black tees = 219
Difference = 46 yards

Par 4
The Sanctuary GC
New Lenox, IL
Hole #9
Blue tees = 350
Black tees = 452
Difference = 102 yards

Par 5
Purgatory GC
Noblesville, IN
Hole #13
Blue tees (Handicap 6-10) = 558
Purgatory tees (Handicap +1 or better) = 624/751
Difference = 66 or 183 yards
I know that the back tee is rarely used even for tournaments, but almost rediculous carry from tee to start of fairway.

Feel free to add your own updates and keep track of the distances
Par 3 = 46 yards
Par 4 = 102 yards
Par 5 = 66yards/183 yards

Justin Houlihan
Chicago, IL

[Jon Cavalier]

I have to think that the Pete Dye Course at French Lick is at or near the top of this list. The par 3 16th plays something like 305 from the back at 220 from the next set up.

[paul cowley]

Sorry guys,  but this measurement exercise bothers me because it's about what is hurting the modern game the most IMO.  If you're in the top 5% of players that are causing our courses to be lengthened by 10%+ to accommodate your game...then I say tough it out, or spend more time in the fitness center to compensate if the extra walk effort is an issue. Whah. But lets not glorify it, as in who has the biggest walkback....

[Adrian_Stiff]

We have a set of tees well back from our Standard medal tees. It is only real fun for 1%.

1 473 - 410
4 243 - 177
5 583 - 540
10 225 - 175
12 568 - 512 * 250 yards to the fairway
15 656 - 553 * 250 yards to the fairway
18 454 - 371

[Adam Lawrence]

Adrian, when you originally built the Codrington, did you go into the project with a goal to build the longest course in the UK, which I think it was at the time (I believe Rockliffe Hall may now be longer), or did it just happen that way? I can see the appeal from a marketing point of view, even if it makes me a little bit queasy!

[Jason Topp]

Sorry guys,  but if you're in the top 5% of players that are causing our courses to be lengthened by 10%+ to accommodate your game...then I say tough it out, or spend more time in the fitness center to compensate if the extra walk effort is an issue. Whah.

I understand the perspective Paul.  However, having gone from a golden age course to a modern one it adds a mile to the walk (assuming everyone hits it straight) and takes at least an extra half hour to play. If I take my daughter to play the front tees we spend a lot of time walking between holes. 

 I can handle the walk - I walked 100 holes last year. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Checked a few of my own designs, since I don't mind big differences from champ to regular tees.  It helps make courses playable if clients insist on 7200+ yards for the scorecard.  Seems like it is handy on long holes, whether 3, 4, or 5, since I like at least one true 3 shot par 5 hole, one long 500+ par 4, and (to really assure long iron play) one 250+ par 3 on most of my courses.

The biggest I can recall pre-coffee on Labor Day

Fortune Bay No. 1 - 649 to 587 yards - 62 yards
Firekeeper No. 3 (par 4) - 505 to 440 yards - 65 yards (takes a guide to find the back tees)
Quarry No. 4 (par 3) - 269 to 228 yards - only 42 yards, but there is also a huge vertical difference.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian, when you originally built the Codrington, did you go into the project with a goal to build the longest course in the UK, which I think it was at the time (I believe Rockliffe Hall may now be longer), or did it just happen that way? I can see the appeal from a marketing point of view, even if it makes me a little bit queasy!

Adam - I would probably say, first design was 7200 yards, in the 3-4 years things took from design to construction/open the golf world kinda changed (technology) and to be honest a par 72 golf course does need to be 7600 if you need to test the best players. At 7600 from the back when we had tournaments (we have had 5 West region championships and 9 Euro-pro's) they play the course at 7300 max. Medal tees were kind of 6800 yards so we were not really crazy long for normal play.

As a marketing exercise being the longest course in the UK gave us a lot more business. The majority of golfers liked the idea.
Rockliffe is now longer. At one stage we had 1800 members, one year we lost 600, most citing is was too difficult.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Adrian - Luckily I think the "longest course" craze is going downward.  I had one course that asked to be the longest in TX at over 7600.  Somewhere in the process they stopped caring, but it was too late!  Still 7600, not sure if its the longest.

To be honest, I believe 7600 is required to test the very, very, very best players, a la the top 20 distance drivers on the PGA Tour, and maybe 2 players in most any other field.  How many PGA Tour pros are really competitive at that length?

Even NCAA courses are set up at about 7250 to protect the bottom half of the field.  The general feel is that these guys hit it further than tour pros, but its really only the top 10% of those golfers, too.

Probably the best thing that could happen for golf is if Tiger adopts and "old man" smooth swing, drops from 310 yard average to 295, and still wins more tourneys and majors.  Sorry to go OT.

[Robin_Hiseman]

I've got one pretty substantial one on the course i'm building in Morocco.

The 17th is a 484 yard Par 4 from the tips. From the regular tee it is 360 yards. That's a difference of 124 yards.

The primary reason for this is the proximity of proposed residential units down the left side of the hole. There are a block of units that jut out into the safety corridor and so I've located the regular tees to avoid conflict with them. They are not likely to be disturbed by the elite playing off the back tee. We approach the hole from the rear, so everybody will have to track past the back tee. Given the climate it is likely that most players will be in carts though. Still a demanding hole from the yellows.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian - Luckily I think the "longest course" craze is going downward.  I had one course that asked to be the longest in TX at over 7600.  Somewhere in the process they stopped caring, but it was too late!  Still 7600, not sure if its the longest.

To be honest, I believe 7600 is required to test the very, very, very best players, a la the top 20 distance drivers on the PGA Tour, and maybe 2 players in most any other field.  How many PGA Tour pros are really competitive at that length?

Even NCAA courses are set up at about 7250 to protect the bottom half of the field.  The general feel is that these guys hit it further than tour pros, but its really only the top 10% of those golfers, too.

Probably the best thing that could happen for golf is if Tiger adopts and "old man" smooth swing, drops from 310 yard average to 295, and still wins more tourneys and majors.  Sorry to go OT.

Yeah I agree. I also think the powers that be have gone the wrong way in making 7400 par 70 the tour default. I liked it when a 59 nine year old man nearly won the Open in 2009.....that tells me that an old man that knows his craft can still win a golf tournament.

[Ken Moum]

Sorry guys,  but this measurement exercise bothers me because it's about what is hurting the modern game the most IMO.  If you're in the top 5% of players that are causing our courses to be lengthened by 10%+ to accommodate your game...then I say tough it out, or spend more time in the fitness center to compensate if the extra walk effort is an issue. Whah. But lets not glorify it, as in who has the biggest walkback....

I'd agree Paul, but for me really becomes an issue when the back tee is by the previous green.  I occasionally play Prairie Green,  a municipal in Sioux Falls, SD. It has several very long walks from.great to tee, which are compounded by having to walk past two sets of tees to the regular tees.

It adds 1200 yards.

[Bill_McBride]

I hate walk backs, but for the 1% who play from those way back tees, no worries, it will never affect me!

I think a course routing where the member tee is close to the previous green marks a good routing.  Walk backs to get to the member tee are regrettable.  We have two at Pensacola CC and they never fail to annoy me.

[James Boon]

I've got one pretty substantial one on the course i'm building in Morocco.

The 17th is a 484 yard Par 4 from the tips. From the regular tee it is 360 yards. That's a difference of 124 yards.

The primary reason for this is the proximity of proposed residential units down the left side of the hole. There are a block of units that jut out into the safety corridor and so I've located the regular tees to avoid conflict with them. They are not likely to be disturbed by the elite playing off the back tee. We approach the hole from the rear, so everybody will have to track past the back tee. Given the climate it is likely that most players will be in carts though. Still a demanding hole from the yellows.

Robin,

While its not as big a difference, the 12th at Lindrick has a similar situation. The white and yellow tees are at 350 and 360 while the championship tees are back at just short of 430. There is a house that is slightly in play from the back tee, thus avoided from the forward tee and I believe they only use the back for top level competition, thus the sort of players who shouldnt trouble the house in question.

Cheers,

James

[Joe Bausch]

I don't read Justin's OP as really asking about long "walk-backs".  I think he just is curious about large differences in yardage between the tips and the next set of tees on specific holes.

Anyhow, I think this one might be hard to top for the par 3 category:  #17 at Stonewall (Elverson, PA; Doak and Hanse).  Recently a new tee was added to this one-shotter making the tips play at 233y.  The next tee up is 130y (diff:  103 yards for those of you scoring at home...)

 

[Jon Wiggett]

I've got one pretty substantial one on the course i'm building in Morocco.

The 17th is a 484 yard Par 4 from the tips. From the regular tee it is 360 yards. That's a difference of 124 yards.

The primary reason for this is the proximity of proposed residential units down the left side of the hole. There are a block of units that jut out into the safety corridor and so I've located the regular tees to avoid conflict with them. They are not likely to be disturbed by the elite playing off the back tee. We approach the hole from the rear, so everybody will have to track past the back tee. Given the climate it is likely that most players will be in carts though. Still a demanding hole from the yellows.

Robin,

While its not as big a difference, the 12th at Lindrick has a similar situation. The white and yellow tees are at 350 and 360 while the championship tees are back at just short of 430. There is a house that is slightly in play from the back tee, thus avoided from the forward tee and I believe they only use the back for top level competition, thus the sort of players who shouldnt trouble the house in question.

Cheers,

James

James,

the whole hole is very disappointing in my book especially taking into consideration the great hole it replaced. At Dewsbury there used to be a par three as the 14th which was 120 (ish) from the standard tees and 200 from the back.

Jon

[JHoulihan]

This exercise was more about  "why do you play from back there" not "look at me because I play back here." I had not yet played this course and had no knowledge of difficulty. I talked to the starter on the first tee before beginning. We discussed some holes and tees specifically. He suggested that I play from the back/black tees. I told him that I rarely do, and he then stated that I could do a mix of both blue and black. That just gives question to what tee on what hole?

Posted distances were blue 6342 and black 6917.

Being a single between two foursome groups was not ideal, but did have some influence on my decision. After shooting a average score from back/black tees (48-40 = 88) I think that either tee was ok based on todays pace of play. I was not in a huge hurry to keep up and did have some build in time being a single between two larger groups.

Just a question to the forum. Please do not think that there was any reason to praise finding a hidden back tee (some holes even had extra signage because cart paths did not streatch all the way to each tee).

[Patrick_Mucci]

JHoulihan,

I think you have to differentiate walking distances between the championship tees and the set in front of them, based on whether the course was designed with that configuration or whether the championship tees were added subsequently.

If an existing course is trying to add length they really don't have much choice as to where to locate the championship tees.

[Thomas Dai]

Some aspects that peeve me with walk-backs -

1) When you're walking back to the next tee and Mr Hacker, playing to the green you've just left, shanks or slices or snap-hooks his approach shot towards you.

2) When you're playing to a green and Mr Inconsiderate, when walking back to his next tee, has left his bag/trolley in a position that could effect the result of your shot

3) Where the walk-back is so far that shorter hitters can no longer reach the fairway, a particular hassle in a comp coz you can't change tee.

4) Overhanging tree branches, way-back tees that are only used occasionally sometimes suffer from this.

atb

[Josh Tarble]

Streamsong Red #5 is 450 from the back - 340 from next one up.  110 yards difference.

I do think modern architects (especially compared to 60s - 80s era) are better at mixing it up.  Some back markers may be right off the green, some may be a pretty significant walk back.  That's how it should be in my opinion.

[Mark Johnson]

Minnesota Valley in Minnesota

18th hole:   600 yards Gold,   492 Blue

[Howard Riefs]

Easy option for modern courses with ample room to add tee boxes for pro tournaments:

Erin Hills
#14
Black: 609
Blue:  505

Whistling Straits
#1
Black: 493
Blue:  405

[Greg Tallman]

The original design at Kiawah Ocean had to have numerous instances... I recall playing the second from the back markers only to look back what seemed 80-90 yards to see another tiny tee pad. Worse yet I was concerned with the carry from the tee we were playing.

Cabo del Sol Desert
#7: Black 329 - Blue 229
#12: Black 592 - Blue 493

[Tom ORourke]

The Fighting Joe course at The Shoals on the RTJ Trail is over 8,000 yards. The 12th is 716 from the back, 622 from the purple tees, 581 from the orange tees and 498 from the regular tees. That is 218 yards from the back to the whites, and 135 from the back to the main set of tees. There is a lot of open land out there so they had it to use, but if you need to hit a 3 wood to get from the back tees to the white tees, you might want to stay off that back tee. Please.

[Dave McCollum]

Just played Old Works in MT.  The course seemed to be designed from the back tees forward.  It’s walkable, but there are some long walks/rides from green to tees.  It’s at altitude and has 5 sets of tees:  7705, 7211, 6776, 6144, 5348.  #15, a par five into the prevailing wind, measures 655 from the tips.  The tees are fairly evenly spaced 30 to 50 yards apart, but the walk from the previous green to the front tees must be close to 300 yards.   From the back tee to the front is 165 yards.  Walks back to the back tees would seem to make sense on a course of this scale, but I don’t think there are many.  Probably added 1560 yards to the walk to the tees we played--close to a mile.  Big hike under the Big Sky.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()