[Josh Tarble]

I really enjoyed Colleton River a lot and would recommend anyone include it in a visit to the Hilton Head area.  When I think about CR along with Shoal Creek and Spring Creek Ranch, it seems Nicklaus excels in Par 5's.  I though all of the 5's at Shoal Creek are really good and I loved the 14th at SCR.  The second at Sycamore Hills is another exceptional par 5.  

Other Nicklaus standouts for me include:

May River
Sebonack
Great Waters-I initially thought this was overrated, but a after a recent visit, realize it is probably underrated.
Champions Retreat-Very solid nine in a cool setting, love the Par 5 fifth.  
Birch River (now Achasta)

I definitely agree with your par 5 comment.  I think JN designs some of the best par 5s in golf.  Most are rather difficult, but that typically means a very interesting choice for the second shot.

Two JN courses I like are:
Sagamore in Indianapolis
Porte Cima in Lake of the Ozarks, MO

Both have a really good set of par 5s.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

I really enjoyed Colleton River a lot and would recommend anyone include it in a visit to the Hilton Head area.  When I think about CR along with Shoal Creek and Spring Creek Ranch, it seems Nicklaus excels in Par 5's.  I though all of the 5's at Shoal Creek are really good and I loved the 14th at SCR.  The second at Sycamore Hills is another exceptional par 5. 

Other Nicklaus standouts for me include:

May River
Sebonack
Great Waters-I initially thought this was overrated, but a after a recent visit, realize it is probably underrated.
Champions Retreat-Very solid nine in a cool setting, love the Par 5 fifth. 
Birch River (now Achasta)

I definitely agree with your par 5 comment.  I think JN designs some of the best par 5s in golf.  Most are rather difficult, but that typically means a very interesting choice for the second shot.

Two JN courses I like are:
Sagamore in Indianapolis
Porte Cima in Lake of the Ozarks, MO

Both have a really good set of par 5s.

Josh you beat me to the punch. I played Porto Cima a few weeks ago and is by far my favorite Nicklaus course, and one of my favorites by any designer. The lake comes into play on at least 6 holes, and the par 5s are reachable but risky. And there are some darn good par 4s too, like #17. This is a Signature course, so was supposedly personally overseen by Jack.

Another good Nicklaus Design, although designed by Gary I believe, is Dalhousie GC.

[Greg Tallman]

the 16th is now the 9th hole and the same hole.   Other than a couple of added bunkers, which changed nothing about the hole, it is still the same par 5.   Whether better than any at CDS, I'll let other decide that for themselves.

So old 10 is still 10? Never could figure out how these two fit back into the routing... 1,2,3,11,12,13,14,15,16 for the front 10,4,5,6,new,new,new,new,7 for the back?

At any rate I like the old 16th, felt that I had options if going for the green. I could try to fly it to the front or sling it off the slope right and short. The setting does not hurt either. I think our 5s are pretty goof though with none on the ocean they get left out of the discussion frequently. That said I know a certain GCA lurker and panelist type who thinks they are very, very good.
-True 3 shotter at #2 (for me anyway) with rather tough lay up shot that makes you think before the approach where you cannot see the surface.
-Death or glory #4 where all a perfect tee shot does for me is set me up for failure trying to hit a long iron/hybrid over the arroyo
-515 yarder with no water at #12... probably have my highest scoring average on this one
-Another reachable at #15 though, like 4, not hitting the green almost precludes making birdie

[JWL]

This is how the revised routing goes.    1,2,3, 12, new par three, 13, 14, 15, 16.    That's the front nine....then the unfortunate backtrack to original #10, new par 3,  11, 4, modified 5, (old #6 par three eliminated) new, new par three, new, 7....and that's the back nine.
Original Holes eliminated are 6, 8, 9, 17 and 18    the last 4 which were on the ocean, and are now expensive home sites.
Hope this helps.

[Greg Tallman]

This is how the revised routing goes.    1,2,3, 12, new par three, 13, 14, 15, 16.    That's the front nine....then the unfortunate backtrack to original #10, new par 3,  11, 4, modified 5, (old #6 par three eliminated) new, new par three, new, 7....and that's the back nine.
Original Holes eliminated are 6, 8, 9, 17 and 18    the last 4 which were on the ocean, and are now expensive home sites.
Hope this helps.

Did not know the original 6th was eliminated and two new holes were above the highway. Interesting that you were able to fit new par threes between the 10th and 11th as well as the 12th and 13th. Some pretty nice terrain in that area, I need to see how you were able to work that magic... thank goodness for tequila and hard boiled eggs!

[Josh Tarble]

Ryan,
I'm actually surprised Porto Cima doesn't get any more publicity.  The Ozarks is not exactly a golf mecca but that should be all the more reason PC should stand out. 

The "two-part" routing keeps it from being really good in my book, but there are some excellent holes. Like you said, great par 5s and the 3s were pretty solid as well. 

[Andy Troeger]

Andy
Not sure when you last saw Shoal Creek, but in the last two years 3,500 trees have been removed.   Several other changes to tees, bunkers and grass hollows have also been made the last two years.   I think in about a month, the course is the best it has ever been.   Nice place.

Good to hear! I think I played in 2009-2010. There was a really cool par five with a meandering creek (#6?) and some other good features that might be accentuated with fewer trees. The bones were certainly always there. Thanks for the update.

[JNC Lyon]

Dismal River and May River are two of my favorites by any architect. Plenty has been said about Dismal on here, so I won't add anything to that discussion.

May River gets some attention, but I still see it as a bit of a hidden gem. It's very close to Hilton Head as the crow flies, but its isolated position on Palmetto Bluff leaves a bit out of the way for the HHI vacationer. For anybody who has not played it, I guarantee the trek out there is worth it. It's a great collection of par fives, which all position hazards at the center of play rather than, as so many modern courses do it, off to the side. The real highlight is the set of green complexes, which make wicked use of short grass and show how a few feet on a flat property can make all the difference.

One course I will add to the mix that I found good but disappointing is Concession. With Dismal River and May River outside Golfweek's Top 100 modern and Concession solidly in, my expectations were set pretty high for the course. This feeling only heightened with the extra fancy clubhouse, excessive pampering from the staff, and celebrity nameplates on the lockers. However, the course was a bit of a letdown. There were a few memorable holes (the short four at the 8th with a tiny green, the zig-zag par five at 13), but most of it was just bland and tough.

As I type this now, I can recall every hole at May River vividly, but I can only remember half a dozen from Concession. I played MR in March 2011, and I got over to Concession in February 2013. I also much prefer the atmosphere at MR, which was laid-back but classy, as opposed to the pretentiousness at Concession.

[Greg Tallman]

Dismal River and May River are two of my favorites by any architect. Plenty has been said about Dismal on here, so I won't add anything to that discussion.

May River gets some attention, but I still see it as a bit of a hidden gem. It's very close to Hilton Head as the crow flies, but its isolated position on Palmetto Bluff leaves a bit out of the way for the HHI vacationer. For anybody who has not played it, I guarantee the trek out there is worth it. It's a great collection of par fives, which all position hazards at the center of play rather than, as so many modern courses do it, off to the side. The real highlight is the set of green complexes, which make wicked use of short grass and show how a few feet on a flat property can make all the difference.

One course I will add to the mix that I found good but disappointing is Concession. With Dismal River and May River outside Golfweek's Top 100 modern and Concession solidly in, my expectations were set pretty high for the course. This feeling only heightened with the extra fancy clubhouse, excessive pampering from the staff, and celebrity nameplates on the lockers. However, the course was a bit of a letdown. There were a few memorable holes (the short four at the 8th with a tiny green, the zig-zag par five at 13), but most of it was just bland and tough.

As I type this now, I can recall every hole at May River vividly, but I can only remember half a dozen from Concession. I played MR in March 2011, and I got over to Concession in February 2013. I also much prefer the atmosphere at MR, which was laid-back but classy, as opposed to the pretentiousness at Concession.

Agree on May River. Great setting, atmosphere and course. The par 5s are quite good, particularly the 10th with the home hole, unfortunately, the least compelling of the group. 3s are a bit of a mixed bag with 6 and 14 excellent. Just a fun course.

[Roger Wolfe]

Isn't using "Nicklaus" and "best courses" an oxymoron?

[Matthew Lloyd]

One that doesn't get mentioned among his better efforts that i enjoyed a lot was Grand Bear in Mississippi. Maybe I was just happy to escape New Orleans during Super Bowl weekend but it was a nice course for a good price.  If you're ever in or around Biloxi, Gulfport or New Orleans, it's a nice course.

[Greg Tallman]

Isn't using "Nicklaus" and "best courses" an oxymoron?

How many of the 10 or so identified in this thread have you played Roger?

[Jeff_Lewis]

Cabo del Sol deserves to be World 100.  And the changes made recently only improve it.   Very cool course.  Clearly one is in Cabo, but there's a lot of linksy feeling to the place.  I don't know which member of the Nicklaus design stable did the work, but I do know it is definitely world class and very enjoyable to play.

[Sam Morrow]

One that doesn't get mentioned among his better efforts that i enjoyed a lot was Grand Bear in Mississippi. Maybe I was just happy to escape New Orleans during Super Bowl weekend but it was a nice course for a good price.  If you're ever in or around Biloxi, Gulfport or New Orleans, it's a nice course.

I enjoyed Grand Bear also, it felt very understated. Not really what I expect from Jack but a great deal of fun.

[Greg Tallman]

Cabo del Sol deserves to be World 100.  And the changes made recently only improve it.   Very cool course.  Clearly one is in Cabo, but there's a lot of linksy feeling to the place.  I don't know which member of the Nicklaus design stable did the work, but I do know it is definitely world class and very enjoyable to play.

Jeff, Thank you for the kind remarks.

Jim Lipe was the lead associate back in 93-94 when the course was built and Jim has overseen all changes since then including the great stuff on holes 5, 6 and 7. If I treat him to a nice dinner at Nick San, Jim might give Kurt Bowman a little credit for the work on the changes. 

Great team and good guys. Miss the good ole days, Jim looking at Kurt with a confused look... "you want to do what? Let me get this straight..."

[Rick Shefchik]

I've only played two -- Dove Mountain in Marana, Ariz., and Bearpath in Eden Prairie, Minn. I like them both, and I never would have suspected the same architect designed them if I didn't already know it. Bearpath suffers only from a couple of holes on the front and a couple of holes on the back that are very similar, and the housing around the course that distracts from the aesthetics of the place, but does not affect the play. There are many quality holes on the course, not all of which favor a high fade.

Dove Mountain is a better course, and also more of a high fader's course -- not many chances to bounce a ball onto the greens there. Seeing it on TV every year helps, but I remember a number of the holes after playing it just once. It's the best desert course I've played, including Talking Stick North and Ventana Canyon.

[JMEvensky]

Andy
Not sure when you last saw Shoal Creek, but in the last two years 3,500 trees have been removed.   Several other changes to tees, bunkers and grass hollows have also been made the last two years.   I think in about a month, the course is the best it has ever been.   Nice place.

Didn't the members always joke that Hall Thompson's funeral would be drowned out by the sound of chainsaws?

[Roger Wolfe]

Isn't using "Nicklaus" and "best courses" an oxymoron?

How many of the 10 or so identified in this thread have you played Roger?

Broadmoor Mountain... that is it.  However, I have played Turtle Point, Elk River, National Golf Club, Williamsburg National, The Club at Longview.  I don't hit a high fade and, due to my awful ball striking, like the ground game.  I have never met a Donald Ross course I did not thoroughly enjoy.

[Jud_T]

Surprisingly, I believe I've only played 3 Nicklaus courses.  Cabo del Sol, which I'd go out of my way to play again, the New Course at Grand Cypress, which I'd happily play again if in the area and the Bear at Grand Traverse, which I'd have to be bribed to set foot on again.

[MClutterbuck]

I had the pleasure of spending a day with Jack at a potential Signature site (great site, difficult to approve). I was driving and he was riding beside me as we entered the property. When I got off the SUV, I was surprised I completely lost Jack from site and feared he had tripped or something when I found him on his knees. He was going through the different native grasses and identifying the natural species that might be used, and how they might relate to fairway grasses he might choose. The agronomist was confirming everything he said.

This is one example of many I have seen that show Jack does get involved in details at certain courses and is more into certain design elements than what most people think.

My favorite JN courses I have played are:

Cabo del Sol
Muirfield Village
El Dorado (Cabo)
Nordelta Golf Club in Buenos Aires (my home club)
Chapelco Golf in San Martin de los Andes

[JWL]

Marcus
Good to hear from you.   Good observation.  Cheers

[Jeff_Brauer]

JWL,

I recall about 30 years ago, walking a project with the Wadsworth guys, and wondering if JN really knew his stuff.  John Cotter mentioned that he was impressed, even back then, by an early JN site visit, where he recognized that and entire fairway could be lowered to balance cut and fill.

Without any formal training (other than the OTJ training probably received from Bob Cupp, Jay Morrish, and others, but a high level of intelligence, it seemed JN caught on to many details of gca quite quickly.

In my view, its entirely natural that he (of all people) start the design process with a higher emphasis on shot values than following the land first, and getting what you get.  Not all here agree, and of course, its a fine balance.  Not to mention, JN had his first dozen commissions or so trying to design tournament courses.  Over the years, he has softened up quite a bit and places like Cimarron in Austin, TX are quite playable.

We often wonder how guys like Ross and Tillie changed their style over a 30 year career. It occurs that we have a chance now with Dye, JN, Fazio and a few others to actually do that retrospective while we can, rather than have to search through old records and debate what they really meant!

[JWL]

Jeff
Regardless of whether folks like all his designs or not, those that have been around him during site visits would not be surprised by your story about Jack at all.   One thing Jack does on every hole, every shot, is to visualize what he wants constructed.   He doesn't just let the shapers  'take a run at it' and then react and critique their work.   On all signature designs, everything that is visual on the hole, is directly specified by him.   It may come after some discussion, but he makes the final call.   Most would be very surprised with his attention to detail.

[Andy Troeger]

Ryan,
I'm actually surprised Porto Cima doesn't get any more publicity.  The Ozarks is not exactly a golf mecca but that should be all the more reason PC should stand out. 

The "two-part" routing keeps it from being really good in my book, but there are some excellent holes. Like you said, great par 5s and the 3s were pretty solid as well. 

I missed this earlier, but I was pleasantly surprised by Porto Cima. I visited in May and really enjoyed the course and especially the last six holes where the lake is really in play. #13 and #15 are neat par fives and the 4th is pretty darn good too. I'm surprised it is not more highly regarded--it is a good golf course on what was probably a challenging site because it is so hilly and severe near the lake.

Also played Grand Bear in Mississippi this spring. Very different course from Porto Cima--probably better land for golf though and a very solid design. Very good course for under $100.

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