Riviera--Oh wow!

[Tom Allen]

There are a ton of threads here on the merits of Riviera, so I apologize for starting another.  But I had the fortune of playing it last week, and I just wanted to add my comments.  For me, from an architectural standpoint, this course deserves its high ranking.

I could play #10 a hundred times and never get tired of it.  Greens overall were simply outstanding.  Those who can move the ball (intentionally, unlike me) can do well here.

P.S.  Don't slice it on 18.  Hooked the ball all day until 18.  Of course.

The kikuyu grass in the fairways was also something new to me.  I saw one 20 yard chip land just short of a slightly elevated green, hop up in the air, and then go backward (a trampoline-like effect).  Very interesting; I had to carry everything to the green.  Contrast this to my recent trip to Bandon, where I HAD to bump and run.

All in all, an incredible experience, and I have a new course to add to my top 5 courses played.

[Jud_T]

Tom,

How'd you like hitting out of that rough?

[Terry Lavin]

It's in my Gourmet's Choice, Fazio bunkers or not!

[Nigel Islam]

I liked the variety of the holes as much as anything. There are no two holes alike, but they all flow so well. Is it possible Riviera might even be underrated?

[Tom Allen]

Jud--Not fun!  Thought I had a good chance to get on in two on a par five until that stuff grabbed my three wood like glue.  (I did like the lies in the fairways though--the ball sat up nicely.)

Nigel--I think you may be on to something.  The course absolutely blew me away.  The strategy this course offers is, in my opinion, up there with the very very best.  I think it deserves to be in top 10.

[Nigel Islam]

What interested me was how Thomas incorporated template ideas. It makes me think the Philly guys and CB probably talked a lot about his theories. Even to the point they might have even listened to him!

[Bill_McBride]

What interested me was how Thomas incorporated template ideas. It makes me think the Philly guys and CB probably talked a lot about his theories. Even to the point they might have even listened to him!

Which templates beyond the Redan?

[Nigel Islam]

What interested me was how Thomas incorporated template ideas. It makes me think the Philly guys and CB probably talked a lot about his theories. Even to the point they might have even listened to him!

Which templates beyond the Redan?

From Ran's write up

"Because Thomas had seen and appreciated many of the northeast’s finest designs, it is not surprising  that so many classic elements are laced throughout Riviera. At the fourth we experience the first Redan built west of the Mississippi; the fifth has an Alps theme;  the seventh a hog’s back fairway and the eighth features a double Lido fairway. On the inward nine we encounter a hole with Cape features at the thirteenth, Eden characteristics at the fourteenth and a Biarritz type green at the fifteenth. Thomas’ original design concepts like the extraordinary boomerang green at the first and the imaginative bunker within the sixth green are as enduring and strategic as the classically inspired features. These are examples of the nuance that elevates Riviera’s status into the stratosphere of design."

[Bill_McBride]

What interested me was how Thomas incorporated template ideas. It makes me think the Philly guys and CB probably talked a lot about his theories. Even to the point they might have even listened to him!

Which templates beyond the Redan?

From Ran's write up

"Because Thomas had seen and appreciated many of the northeast’s finest designs, it is not surprising  that so many classic elements are laced throughout Riviera. At the fourth we experience the first Redan built west of the Mississippi; the fifth has an Alps theme;  the seventh a hog’s back fairway and the eighth features a double Lido fairway. On the inward nine we encounter a hole with Cape features at the thirteenth, Eden characteristics at the fourteenth and a Biarritz type green at the fifteenth. Thomas’ original design concepts like the extraordinary boomerang green at the first and the imaginative bunker within the sixth green are as enduring and strategic as the classically inspired features. These are examples of the nuance that elevates Riviera’s status into the stratosphere of design."

Unfortunately most of that has been neutered by kikuyu and Fazio. 

[Nigel Islam]

What interested me was how Thomas incorporated template ideas. It makes me think the Philly guys and CB probably talked a lot about his theories. Even to the point they might have even listened to him!

Which templates beyond the Redan?

From Ran's write up

"Because Thomas had seen and appreciated many of the northeast’s finest designs, it is not surprising  that so many classic elements are laced throughout Riviera. At the fourth we experience the first Redan built west of the Mississippi; the fifth has an Alps theme;  the seventh a hog’s back fairway and the eighth features a double Lido fairway. On the inward nine we encounter a hole with Cape features at the thirteenth, Eden characteristics at the fourteenth and a Biarritz type green at the fifteenth. Thomas’ original design concepts like the extraordinary boomerang green at the first and the imaginative bunker within the sixth green are as enduring and strategic as the classically inspired features. These are examples of the nuance that elevates Riviera’s status into the stratosphere of design."

Unfortunately most of that has been neutered by kikuyu and Fazio. 

Maybe, but what is left is still pretty good. I got a pretty good kick off the 4th, and I played in March. I really thought the kikuyu was quite similar to the zoisya we have in Southern Indiana so it did not bother me that much. I think it is slightly underrated despite its high rankings.

[Scott Warren]

The "kikuyu kills it" argument is dramatically overplayed. GCA populist groupthink not based on the relaity of the situation.

Kikuyu has its downsides, but at Riviera and The Lakes, where the clubs have the $$$ to manage it well, it's actually a decent grass to play on. The more I play on quality kikuyu, the more I like it.

I agree that if anything, Riviera is underrated. Few courses have the sheer number of great holes and brilliant greens that Riviera has.

It's notable that with some very average land in the middle of the property, the holes there - 2, 9, 10, 14, 15, 16 - are bloody good thanks to smart bunkering and inventive greens.

[BShannon]

Played here for the first time last month and hope to get back someday.

#10 is a perfect golf hole. My host smacked a ball way left and the caddie exclaimed "that's perfect." I drilled a 5 iron down the middle and he said, "Yikes."  I ended up picking up after my 6th from the back bunker rolled off the surface into the front bunker.

#4 is a brute but the Redan quality makes the green accessible for most. My host made a birdie and said it was his only 2 in 15 years of being a member - fun to share that with him.

The routing is perfect to me as well - short green to tee walks and the course just flows seamlessly,

From an experience standpoint, my partners and I got a huge kick out of the starter announcing our names on the first tee and all of the staff turning to clap. Pretty damn funny and a nice touch.

[Tom Allen]

Mark, I agree with your assessment of 10.  It is the perfect golf hole.  Caddie and host said you have to be left.  Host hit his left perfectly, as if to demonstrate the right line.  I hit a hybrid, but pushed it, so I was right down the middle, clearing the bunker right into the fairway. 50 yards from pin, just a little wedge.  (How can that be hard?).  They said "you 'might' get up and down from there.  Good luck."

I too did not get up and down.  I fortunately escaped with only a 5.  Missed rolling my approach into the back bunker by two inches, or it would have been much worse.  Simply a fabulous hole.

4 was not easy.  Length made me hit a 3 wood.  Sadly, I pulled it and hooked it.  It rolled into a bunker on the fairway left of 4. It is really hard to play it from another hole. 

[Nigel Islam]

I hit way left on 10, pulled my wedge left, hit my chip short in the fringe and holed a 10 footer for par. My playing companion hit three wood to front right of green and had the same par putt I did. Left is the play alright! The green is only ten paces across where the pin was that day. Can you give a Doak rating for an individual hole?