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Mike McGuire

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Alternate shot format
« on: June 04, 2014, 10:49:41 AM »
Need some input. There is an alternate shot Father Son tournament at our club Fathers day weekend. Ryder cup style odd / even with a gross and net division. Each team is competing in both divisions.

Is it ok if some players use the forward (white) tees in the gross division? Tournament rules say if a player normally plays the white tees he can play them in the event. Course plays 6516 from the Blues and 5639 from the whites.

Thanks

Rich Goodale

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Re: Alternate shot format
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2014, 11:07:17 AM »
I can't see how that will work, Mike, unless you have four "flights" (i.e. Gross Blue, Gross White, Net Blue, Net White).  It is absurd to think of a competition where competitors for Gross prizes can play off of different tees.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Mike McGuire

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Re: Alternate shot format
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2014, 11:44:39 AM »
Rich

Thats my position as well but our pro thinks its fine. Hoping for a few others to chime in so I can present some viewpoints form non members.

Its happened at least twice where the gross winners had 1 player playing up tees (a 1,000 yard advantage)

Rick Shefchik

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Re: Alternate shot format
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2014, 11:47:36 AM »
The only way that makes any sense is in a net competition, where each player's handicap can be adjusted to the shorter course. In a gross competition, any player who doesn't play the forward tees is a chump.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Bill_McBride

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Re: Alternate shot format
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2014, 12:01:55 PM »
The only way that makes any sense is in a net competition, where each player's handicap can be adjusted to the shorter course. In a gross competition, any player who doesn't play the forward tees is a chump.

Agree with this.  You can't adjust gross results. 

Perhaps there's a course in between those distances, using front of blues mixed with back of whites, perhaps in the 6,100 yard range. 

Thomas Dai

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Re: Alternate shot format
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2014, 12:07:50 PM »
I've organised several alternate shot Father-Son/Parent-Child events. They worked okay with different handicap divisions playing from different tees, although players need to be aware that standing in an inappropriate place could result in you getting a ProV1 in the back of the head! (And I'm not being just jokey when I say this!)

We found a pairing of a long hitting but higher hcp kid and a low hcp savvy golfer parent normally wins, which can make it a bit of a chore for those with no chance of getting a prize, so I'd suggest having a range of other prizes such as straightest tee shot (paint a line in a fairway), nearest the pins, any holed bunker shots etc. Still Father-Son and Parent-Child should mainly be for fun IMO.

An alternative is what is known in some places as a Greensome - both players tee off, the team then decides which ball to play for the 2nd etc shot and you play alternatively from there. A bit safer but once again, we found a pairing of a long hitting but higher hcp kid and a low hcp savvy golfer parent normally wins.

Some adults tend to get rather over-competitive and do things like change ball type depending on who is playing the shot. Watch out for this kind of behaviour and stop it, otherwise things can potentially get unpleasant!

I recommend no gross prizes though or maybe just one and then just a minor one.

Grandparent-Grandchild pairs is also a terrific format, again one which I've organised several times, and thoroughly recommend.

For much younger kids/juniors many of whom arn't yet able to walk/behave for 18-holes consider holding the same event over say 6-holes or 9-holes. Also hold fun events around the Clubhouse like chipping through hoops or into inflatable paddling pools or putting into painted circles of different diameter as these tend to keep little ones active so they don't get bored, misbehave and/or pester the adults, coz if they do the 'powers-that-be' around the club tend to not want you to hold the event again.

I'd also suggest you combine all this with a BBQ and have a big prize giving ceremony at the end with the Club Captain giving out the prizes. Take lots of photos too and post them on your clubs website/noticeboard. Parents/grandparents love seeing their kids receive even a minor prize and then they want to participate again next year. And as to the famous 'growing-the-game' phrase, well nothing keeps youngsters wanting to carry on playing than getting a prize that they can keep on a shelf in their bedroom and look at regularly.

Have fun, for as I said above, that's what Father-Son and Parent-Child pairs golf should mainly be about.

atb
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 02:13:35 PM by Thomas Dai »

Mike McGuire

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Re: Alternate shot format
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2014, 05:34:56 PM »
Thomas

The event was conceived to be a Father - Son championship event with a gross and a net.  Not a "have fun everyone wins something" event.
I guess they are trying to meet in the middle.

The central question is can a gross event be fairly played when some contestants are playing from forward tees?

Bill_McBride

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Re: Alternate shot format
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2014, 05:37:40 PM »
Thomas

The event was conceived to be a Father - Son championship event with a gross and a net.  Not a "have fun everyone wins something" event.
I guess they are trying to meet in the middle.

The central question is can a gross event be fairly played when some contestants are playing from forward tees?

I think the answer is still "no."

Kyle Casella

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Re: Alternate shot format
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2014, 05:44:00 PM »
I agree with the assessment that gross does not work from mixed tees. Someone suggested mixed tees, which could be a good solution for gross, although it throws off the net if that course is not rated and there is a large differential in rating between blue and white.

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Alternate shot format
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2014, 05:44:40 PM »
I don't think that would work.  Especially at a 900 yd difference.

I played in a number of Father-Son (or Parent-Child) events and there were two tees used...blue for combined handicaps below a certain threshold, and white for all others (including those where the child doesn't have a handicap so a blind bogey is used).  There were two champions named in each division (blue gross and net, and white gross and net).
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Alternate shot format
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2014, 05:47:52 PM »
How about gross -  play from the blue, and net - play from the white?

Or a gross & net prize could be given from each tee.  
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 05:54:33 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Alternate shot format
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2014, 06:00:34 PM »
Go to the USGA home page, click on publications, click on 'How to Conduct a Competition, download the pdf. the answers should be in there

Buck Wolter

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Re: Alternate shot format
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2014, 06:06:19 PM »
Couldn't it be by age? Something like <15, >65 play from the whites?
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Alternate shot format
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2014, 06:18:00 PM »
I used to win this type of event year after year with multiple children. They were never fair. What I enjoyed most was seeing how a child can love a father despite how much he sucks. I did almost get beat once until on the final hole my 9 year old son drained a long downhill putt for an improbable birdie. I couldn't hold back the tears on the drive back to the clubhouse.  My son had never seen tears of joy and does not recall the event to this day.

Mike, if I recall properly you are a great golfer. Be careful not to let your son see you bitch about what is fair as he looks upon other kids whose dads are talentless stubs. No trophy fixes that.

Btw.  The reason I won so often was that our pro let young children tee off from about 100 yds out. Even if my son whiffed we had an advantage. Fair, not in the least.

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Alternate shot format
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2014, 07:10:37 PM »
I used to win this type of event year after year with multiple children. They were never fair. What I enjoyed most was seeing how a child can love a father despite how much he sucks. I did almost get beat once until on the final hole my 9 year old son drained a long downhill putt for an improbable birdie. I couldn't hold back the tears on the drive back to the clubhouse.  My son had never seen tears of joy and does not recall the event to this day.

Mike, if I recall properly you are a great golfer. Be careful not to let your son see you bitch about what is fair as he looks upon other kids whose dads are talentless stubs. No trophy fixes that.

Btw.  The reason I won so often was that our pro let young children tee off from about 100 yds out. Even if my son whiffed we had an advantage. Fair, not in the least.

Bingo.

There is no reason in the world to worry about this; play the tees you normally play, have a good time, and enjoy being with the kids.  There's no money at stake, no rankings, and so on. 

The only thing at stake is the opportunity for fathers to get to play golf with their kids and have fun, and THAT is precious!  Don't screw it up by worrying about a concept of competitive "fairness" that is arbitrary at best.  Save that for your $10 nassau on Saturday morning.

I used to play in an event like this every Fathers Day.  My son is all grown up and far from me now, and my daughter is gone forever.  If you make this about anything but getting as many dads and kids on the course as possible, you have really missed a boat that will never come back.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

D_Malley

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Re: Alternate shot format
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2014, 10:17:59 AM »
we hold a alt shot tournament every year at my club on fathers day.  it is not a father son.

what is the best way to calculate team handicaps for this format?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alternate shot format
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2014, 10:59:44 AM »
we hold a alt shot tournament every year at my club on fathers day.  it is not a father son.

what is the best way to calculate team handicaps for this format?

In the UK where they play foursomes all the time, they give 3/8 of the combined handicaps of the team.  Seems to work fine.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 08:41:25 PM by Bill_McBride »

Bill Brightly

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Re: Alternate shot format
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2014, 08:09:19 PM »
Reminds me of the time my father and I played in our clubs Scotch Pinehurst "parent-child." Based on our handicaps, we were about the 8th best team and had no real chance at the Gross, but we played beautifully together and beat all the other father-son teams, including one named McGovern... We were gross leaders in the clubhouse, and one by one the other top teams posted scores above our 70. And then the last group came in... A father-daughter team tied us! We went to the first tee for the playoff, a 490 yard par 5 for us, but only 416 from the red tees... And this athletic young lady proceeded to knock her drive down the hill (that I could not reach), leaving only a short iron for her Dad, and their name is posted on the wall, not my Dad's. That still irks me to no end.

Mike McGuire

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Re: Alternate shot format
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2014, 05:16:49 PM »
Thanks for all the input. I appreciate it.

Decided to take the advice of John Kavenaugh and others and just have a good time / not worry about format. As,it turns out I will be playing with both my sons. I'll play off  the odd tees with one and the even with the other.  Should be a hoot and or circus.

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