Historical use of short grass against player

[Andrew Buck]

Listening to the current "State of the Game" podcast, there was mention of using short grass against the good player, a topic I've heard in the past and enjoy in architecture.  That said, against the backdrop of historical use in the Pinehurst area, and anecdotal evidence from personal experience, I started a stream of conscious that led me to the following question.  

Did mowing heights during Donald Ross's era really allow the short grass to be used against the player the way it would be today?  

Using a series of assumptions which may be cloaked in ignorance, I believe the answer is it would not impact in the exact same way as today, however since the game was played so much on the ground that even with slower (but firm) surfaces shots would be repelled from the hole by the short grass.

I may be way off base on all assumptions, so I'm hoping to learn about the past.  My main club has some greens with good character and some nice undulations mowed at fairway height around the greens.  Unfortunately for this style, the fairways a bluegrass/rygrass mix that really requires maintenance close to one inch, thus removing the ability for a ball to really take a slope.  Maybe it just is the unfortunate consequence of what you lose if you aren't on sandy soil with the right turf.  

I'm also curious if it's a correct assumption that fairway grass wasn't maintained extremely tight in years past, as I'm just not familiar with the maintenance practices with those grasses on those soils at that time.

[Tom_Doak]

Andrew:

In general, mowing heights in the old days were quite a bit higher today.  I doubt that the "short grass" around the greens in the old days was mowed much lower than the fairways -- about 3/4 of an inch.

However, there are two notable exceptions:

1.  Sheep chewed down the grass on links courses just as short as they do today, and

2.  A course like Pinehurst #2, where short grass around the greens was dormant in the winter season, probably saw the ball roll away from the greens quite a bit, even at higher mowing heights.

[jeffwarne]

Andrew:

In general, mowing heights in the old days were quite a bit higher today.  I doubt that the "short grass" around the greens in the old days was mowed much lower than the fairways -- about 3/4 of an inch.

However, there are two notable exceptions:

1.  Sheep chewed down the grass on links courses just as short as they do today, and

2.  A course like Pinehurst #2, where short grass around the greens was dormant in the winter season, probably saw the ball roll away from the greens quite a bit, even at higher mowing heights.

I think you can also add that a lack of irrigation had to play into it.
and for the record I'm not a fan of the fact that agronomy has gotten way ahead of ability, and don't enjoy grass that's so short that putting is consistently the best option (or worse yet a stupid hybrid )
Chipping is becoming a lost art

[Brent Hutto]

and for the record I'm not a fan of the fact that agronomy has gotten way ahead of ability, and don't enjoy grass that's so short that putting is consistently the best option (or worse yet a stupid hybrid )
Chipping is becoming a lost art

Jeff,

I still recall that Sunday we played at Palmetto and you gave me the business for trying to play some little shot around the green with a hybrid (or was it a fairway wood) instead of just putting it. About once a year temptation gets the better of me and I'll pull out a 7-wood or 3-hybrid to "chip" the ball from just off the green. And the majority of the time the result is a decidedly mediocre shot not nearly as good as my average result with a putter.

I tihnk it's a ratio of about 10:1...for every 10 times I see some guy on TV doing the fairway wood chip, I'll have to try it myself.

[BCowan]

I think you can also add that a lack of irrigation had to play into it.
and for the record I'm not a fan of the fact that agronomy has gotten way ahead of ability, and don't enjoy grass that's so short that putting is consistently the best option (or worse yet a stupid hybrid )
Chipping is becoming a lost art

I agree completely with you on irrigation.  You are having to putt on tight lies due to the 20+ degrees of bounce you advocated for in prior posts for you wedges

[jeffwarne]

and for the record I'm not a fan of the fact that agronomy has gotten way ahead of ability, and don't enjoy grass that's so short that putting is consistently the best option (or worse yet a stupid hybrid )
Chipping is becoming a lost art

Jeff,

I still recall that Sunday we played at Palmetto and you gave me the business for trying to play some little shot around the green with a hybrid (or was it a fairway wood) instead of just putting it. About once a year temptation gets the better of me and I'll pull out a 7-wood or 3-hybrid to "chip" the ball from just off the green. And the majority of the time the result is a decidedly mediocre shot not nearly as good as my average result with a putter.

I tihnk it's a ratio of about 10:1...for every 10 times I see some guy on TV doing the fairway wood chip, I'll have to try it myself.

Brent,
I'm guessing I said something like "if you're going to putt, use a club designed for it! "
Patience never was my strong suit.......

love to see a return of higher fairway heights-average player can actually hit it, better player would have to gauge spin and/or flyer,
and chipping would return to the game

[jeffwarne]

I think you can also add that a lack of irrigation had to play into it.
and for the record I'm not a fan of the fact that agronomy has gotten way ahead of ability, and don't enjoy grass that's so short that putting is consistently the best option (or worse yet a stupid hybrid )
Chipping is becoming a lost art

I agree completely with you on irrigation.  Your having to putt on tight lies due to the 20+ degrees of bounce you advocated for in prior posts for you wedges
[/quote]

Ben,
wedges with more bounce are coming.
they're already out there, but not stamped with the actual bounce as players can't believe they need 20 degrees of bounce.
Just the same as players used to think they needed 7.5 drivers, they currently think 8 degrees of bounce is right for them.
it's already happening-watch

[BCowan]

Jeff,

   Bounce is great for a full sand wedge, tell me how you like it on a 10-20 yards chip/pitch?  High bounce has been around.  That white fluffy Florida sand isn't losing popularity though, unfortunately.  Hopefully they don't ban grinding wheels 

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,

   Bounce is great for a full sand wedge, tell me how you like it on a 10-20 yards chip/pitch?  High bounce has been around.  That white fluffy Florida sand isn't losing popularity though, unfortunately.  Hopefully they don't ban grinding wheels 

love it on a 20 yard pitch, esp. if the heel is ground a bit

[Brent Hutto]

A year ago I had a bit of the chipping yips. I was also using my then almost-new Ping G20 irons, all the way up to the 58-degree "L" wedge. So anyway, it had been a while since I went to see my teaching-pro buddy so I called him up and scheduled a chipping lesson.

First thing we did was get me started "using the bounce" on 20-yard chip shots. Just take a 54-degree wedge and chip the ball without trying to fit the leading edge under it or anything like that. Open it up slightly and let the bounce just scoot the club through the grass at the same time the ball takes off. You can even hit slightly behind it and the bounce with let it glide without "bouncing" (funny how that works).

The whole time we were working on this I was thinking maybe he was going to say something disparaging about my clunky Ping wedges from my iron set. They have huge, wide, fat soles with lots of bounce. He was using a nice Vokey 54-degree. So finally at the end of the lesson I asked if my wedges were OK in his opinion.

Now I'm lefty and he's righty so we'd been mirroring each other for the whole lesson. He took my big, fat, lefty wedge and hit about a dozen of exactly the same shots left-handed he'd been hitting with his right-handed Vokey. He said "Seems fine to me".

My point being, with that particular "use the bounce" technique I'm not sure there is a such thing as too much bounce on a 20-yard chip shot. And of course plenty of bounce makes sand shots easy-peasy as Gene Sarazen discovered three-quarters of a century ago. I'm not surprised to hear manufacturers are sneaking extra bounce into their wedges, regardless of the number on the sole. It's like my Ping G25 driver marked "9.5" which actually had about 12 or 12-1/2 degrees of loft. Easiest hitting 9.5-degree driver I've ever seen!

[jeffwarne]

A year ago I had a bit of the chipping yips. I was also using my then almost-new Ping G20 irons, all the way up to the 58-degree "L" wedge. So anyway, it had been a while since I went to see my teaching-pro buddy so I called him up and scheduled a chipping lesson.

First thing we did was get me started "using the bounce" on 20-yard chip shots. Just take a 54-degree wedge and chip the ball without trying to fit the leading edge under it or anything like that. Open it up slightly and let the bounce just scoot the club through the grass at the same time the ball takes off. You can even hit slightly behind it and the bounce with let it glide without "bouncing" (funny how that works).

The whole time we were working on this I was thinking maybe he was going to say something disparaging about my clunky Ping wedges from my iron set. They have huge, wide, fat soles with lots of bounce. He was using a nice Vokey 54-degree. So finally at the end of the lesson I asked if my wedges were OK in his opinion.

Now I'm lefty and he's righty so we'd been mirroring each other for the whole lesson. He took my big, fat, lefty wedge and hit about a dozen of exactly the same shots left-handed he'd been hitting with his right-handed Vokey. He said "Seems fine to me".

My point being, with that particular "use the bounce" technique I'm not sure there is a such thing as too much bounce on a 20-yard chip shot. And of course plenty of bounce makes sand shots easy-peasy as Gene Sarazen discovered three-quarters of a century ago. I'm not surprised to hear manufacturers are sneaking extra bounce into their wedges, regardless of the number on the sole. It's like my Ping G25 driver marked "9.5" which actually had about 12 or 12-1/2 degrees of loft. Easiest hitting 9.5-degree driver I've ever seen!

bingo