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Mike_Young

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shaper lineage and how it plays out in the future
« on: May 27, 2014, 07:18:46 PM »
I just finished reading Jim Hansen's new book on RTJ and it made me realize he had many of the same issues most of us in this business have or had as we tried to stay in it.  In his early years and with his start he knew the construction of course was key to surviving, he took a holistic approach which IMHO is the way to survive the business and he had his own construction company and operated course to keep him afloat during lean times.  I have always viewed golf architecture/design as more of an artisan business model than a professional business model and I think he did also except he wanted to create more professionalism in it for business reasons. 
Anyway, what it made me realize was how far we have come with shapers.  The shaper of 1975 was an entirely different person than the shaper of today.  Many knew nothing about the game and had just come along as construction workers.  As they learned so did the architect in many cases.  Just take a look at JN work when all was being done by a particular company in the early 80's vs. how much better it got as they found better and better shapers.  When an archie found a player/shaper he had better hold on for the ride.  The first time I saw this was when I used Craig Metz for about 4 years.  The guy is in a Texas Golf HOF as a player and his dad, Dick Metz, was one of Hogan's best buddies and his pro at Shady Oaks as well as Westchester. (ask Kye G...who worked w/him)  Metz spent 24 hours a day studying design and older courses and backed it up with photos.  After that everyone I have kept and actually have working for me now was trained originally by Maxie w Pete Dye and PB or little Stevie Lucy :)...or some may remember Louey Capelli(sp?) who would wear a blazer in his Lincoln rental car to a job site ( Fazio specialist)  These were the beginnings of the shaper/builder we see today.  BUT.....where I'm trying to go with this is:  I'm not sure there is much training ground and practice left to train shapers today for the future.  Guys tire of the life and it will not take but just a few more years and the really good shapers will be minimal.  Their tree will be the key to good golf course sin 20 years.  Otherwise a designer has to begin anew and it is a slow learning curve..it may even be that shapers are as individual to a specific designer as the designer himself...that would be good....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Blake Conant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: shaper lineage and how it plays out in the future
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2014, 08:10:12 PM »
I'm not sure there is much training ground and practice left to train shapers today for the future.  Guys tire of the life and it will not take but just a few more years and the really good shapers will be minimal.  Their tree will be the key to good golf course sin 20 years.

Interesting topic, Mike.  

Right now I think there's a lot of young, eager, and talented dudes willing to wander around the world for an opportunity to build shit.  I don't doubt some guys will tire of that life, but I do think the opportunity to learn how to shape is available and there are some experienced guys willing to teach / mentor.  That's helpful for the future.  

I can't tell if your post implies a dire situation for architects in the next 5+ years and wondering who will build the courses once the current guys retire?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 08:13:53 PM by Blake Conant »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: shaper lineage and how it plays out in the future
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2014, 08:12:48 PM »
I'm not sure there is much training ground and practice left to train shapers today for the future.  Guys tire of the life and it will not take but just a few more years and the really good shapers will be minimal.  Their tree will be the key to good golf course sin 20 years.

Interesting topic, Mike. 

Right now I think there's a lot of young, eager, and talented dudes willing to wander around the world for an opportunity to build shit.  I don't doubt some guys will tire of that life, but I do think the opportunity to learn how to shape is available and there are some experienced guys willing to teach / mentor.  That's big time. 

I can't tell if your post implies a dire situation for architects in the next 5+ years and wondering who will build the courses once the current guys retire?

I met a young Australian at Cabot Links who had traveled to Nova Scotia to work on Cabot Cliffs and on the Cabot Links crew.  There are some who still get the bug.   

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: shaper lineage and how it plays out in the future
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2014, 08:17:53 PM »
Great points Mike...go man go...too tired to type....but I will just a little more.

Working with two very talented career shapers while building Tigers course down here in Cabo...Mark Burger and Joe Titzer...both of whom have built many courses and have a total understanding of the major Archies styles and taste (and if left on their own they could probably improve the tastes). They have a social media network with other shapers worldwide that exchanges news and work knowledge of who's doing whatever and whats on line etc...very interesting and of late I have come to realize that our design/build trade is/and has become very Guild-like in essence, with different component parts all working together to produce a unique product that is not produced on a mass scale.

Enough said, but I am very proud to be a part of the Guild and the Guild product.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: shaper lineage and how it plays out in the future
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2014, 09:43:33 PM »
Blake,
You are fortunate to be working with such guys right now and I agree with you on those guys.  You were not quite of age when things were booming and RE had course going at 300-400 per year.  IMHO to actually consider golf design any type of business again it would take at least 200 courses and I don"t see that again.  If that were to happen sometime in the future there would not be enough guys that knew what was happening.  there would be guys that liked to run autocad but the shaper himself would not be in available in the quantity needed and thus many projects would suffer.  And I think the future will have shapers that align with one group and are not for hire.  I don't see a lot of the top guys going to work for the big companies. 

Paul,
Mark has worked with me before...say hello and ask him where Jim, John Boy and Joey are hiding...they used to all work toether for a few years....great group.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Blake Conant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: shaper lineage and how it plays out in the future
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2014, 10:10:24 PM »
IMHO to actually consider golf design any type of business again it would take at least 200 courses

That's kind of interesting.  You don't consider golf design a type of business right now?  Why not?


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: shaper lineage and how it plays out in the future
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2014, 10:23:31 PM »
IMHO to actually consider golf design any type of business again it would take at least 200 courses

That's kind of interesting.  You don't consider golf design a type of business right now?  Why not?


Blake,
I think we started to discuss this one day a few years ago in Athens.  But be sure and read the RTJ book..it is very good..it will explain more
Think about it.  How many guys do you know that can make a good living for a family on an ongoing basis by just "designing" and drawing golf courses and not being involved in other aspects such as construction or owning courses.  I don't think it has ever been that way and the ones that didn't had money and did it for free.  I bet not more than 10 if that.  the rest have their wives working.  I'm not judging it , I'm just being realistic.
The boom had nothing to do with making a living by designing but the big money was marketing fees.  I love being involved in the business but I refuse to blow smoke to so many of these kids that think they can enter and just sketch holes.  It will take diversity. 
And so NO, I don't consider design by itself a viable business model for a long time now.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: shaper lineage and how it plays out in the future
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2014, 11:37:59 PM »
Mike - my oldest friend is a successful actor who used to do stage and films and television but for several years now has been almost exclusively on television. Some of the shows he's done are of much higher quality than others, and I kid him sometimes that, for an actor, doing Shakespeare must be a lot easier than doing bad television. With Shakespeare, all an actor has to do is speak the lines -- the writing is so good that the emotions and drama take care of themselves; whereas with a mediocre television show, an actor has to act his ass off just to try to make the crappy writing understandable, let alone emotional and dramatic. All of which is to say: when I read your opening post, my first thought was that, just as an actor can only be as good as the material he's given, so too can a shaper only be as good as the architect he's working for/the design he's working on. Like the actor, he can be worse than the material/design, but he'd be hard pressed to be any better.  I think of some of the courses I've played where the shaping seems uninspired, and then I 'step back' on try to see what the shaper had to work with design-wise and I realize that he could hardly have done any better, given the 'material' he was given. No doubt, as you say, shapers are much different today than they were in the 70s -- but like actors they can be incredibly talented and dedicated but if they don't choose their 'parts' right their work can never really shine, or shine through. It seems to me that a good architect can make a shaper look great much more easily than a good shaper can make an architect look great.  

Peter
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 11:45:35 PM by PPallotta »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: shaper lineage and how it plays out in the future
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2014, 05:36:17 AM »
everyone I have kept and actually have working for me now was trained originally by Maxie w Pete Dye and PB or little Stevie Lucy :)

 These were the beginnings of the shaper/builder we see today.  BUT.....where I'm trying to go with this is:  I'm not sure there is much training ground and practice left to train shapers today for the future.  Guys tire of the life and it will not take but just a few more years and the really good shapers will be minimal.  Their tree will be the key to good golf course sin 20 years.  Otherwise a designer has to begin anew and it is a slow learning curve..it may even be that shapers are as individual to a specific designer as the designer himself...that would be good....

Mike:

There was a lot in your post and with its lack of punctuation I am still trying to get to it all.  ;)

First off, you mentioned Max Robinson [who I worked for briefly in Clarksburg] and Steve Lucciola [P.B.'s college buddy, who worked with me at Piping Rock].  I am not sure either of those two fit your profile of being a student of golf or golf architecture, but they were great guys who knew how to get things done.  Lucy is the one who said to P.B. one night in Savannah, "Are you sure you want to tell Tommy everything?  Because he is going to remember it all."

We have certainly seen lots of new guys come through our program over the past 15-20 years.  A few will make it as architects, others as shapers who help make an architect's life easier ... there are not many big-time construction projects nowadays where you won't find one or more of my former interns working.  I would rather do that than take on guys from other programs ... no doubt there is a lot of talent out there, but they are not all good listeners.  [Jerame Miller was an exception to this rule.]

You are right though that the scarcity of work makes it harder to keep finding opportunities for inexperienced guys to learn.  Just keeping their three teachers busy enough is hard enough on me.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: shaper lineage and how it plays out in the future
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2014, 05:45:25 AM »
All of which is to say: when I read your opening post, my first thought was that, just as an actor can only be as good as the material he's given, so too can a shaper only be as good as the architect he's working for/the design he's working on. Like the actor, he can be worse than the material/design, but he'd be hard pressed to be any better.  I think of some of the courses I've played where the shaping seems uninspired, and then I 'step back' on try to see what the shaper had to work with design-wise and I realize that he could hardly have done any better, given the 'material' he was given. No doubt, as you say, shapers are much different today than they were in the 70s -- but like actors they can be incredibly talented and dedicated but if they don't choose their 'parts' right their work can never really shine, or shine through. It seems to me that a good architect can make a shaper look great much more easily than a good shaper can make an architect look great.

Peter:

There is some validity in your comparison but only up to a point.  In fact, shapers CAN make a project better than the material, and have done so for many years, which explains the rise of construction companies and their favor with the average designer. 

The problem is, many have done so for long enough that they don't understand the converse -- that an architect can make THEM so much better, by putting them in the right spot on a great piece of land, where they don't have to do so much to make the hole work.  In that situation, only a small percentage know to keep things simple and move on to the next hole, instead of making a project out of every green site.  [Partly this is ego, as in the need to make it not look too easy so as to justify their value.]  As Eric Iverson once said, it is easier to be a star if you keep coming to bat with the bases loaded.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: shaper lineage and how it plays out in the future
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2014, 06:18:33 AM »
Great points Mike...go man go...too tired to type....but I will just a little more.

Working with two very talented career shapers while building Tigers course down here in Cabo...Mark Burger and Joe Titzer...both of whom have built many courses and have a total understanding of the major Archies styles and taste (and if left on their own they could probably improve the tastes). They have a social media network with other shapers worldwide that exchanges news and work knowledge of who's doing whatever and whats on line etc...very interesting and of late I have come to realize that our design/build trade is/and has become very Guild-like in essence, with different component parts all working together to produce a unique product that is not produced on a mass scale.

Enough said, but I am very proud to be a part of the Guild and the Guild product.

paul!  has somebody hijacked your computer? rhic.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: shaper lineage and how it plays out in the future
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2014, 07:37:30 AM »
TD,
Sorry my punctuation, or lack thereof threw you off. 
I was trying to say that guys like Lucy or Maxie were part of the transition from pure machinery operator to shaper.  When you mention Savannah, were you  at Ford Plantation with those guys?  BTW, I think Lucy is in the cell phone business.  I saw him at a Braves game few years back and he was doing such.
Anyway, let me rephrase my point.  Today's good shapers can take a "one hit, amateur, or whatever other phrase is used to describe an architect, and make him much better than in the late 70's and early 80's.  And many know more than some archies :)JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: shaper lineage and how it plays out in the future
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2014, 07:46:42 AM »
It seems to me that a good architect can make a shaper look great much more easily than a good shaper can make an architect look great.  

Peter
Peter,
I don't know about that.  I have seen many cases of a good shaping team taking control of an architect that had no clue and make him look good.  I have seen signatures trust a good shaper enough to call in a " put #7 green from course A on greensite #3 at course B".  The archie would then show up and make no changes.  And then I have seen a good architect stuck with a mediocre shaper have to spend days on something that would other shapers 2 hours.   The best are a team respecting the other's  input IMHO.   
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: shaper lineage and how it plays out in the future
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2014, 08:58:38 AM »
Our course here in Chicago just reopened this weekend after a Jim Urbina restoration.
The project started out as a bunker job with tree remediation, greens expansions  and grassing lines, but happily morphed into a refreshing of a 100+ year old course.

Shapers on site were Tony Russell (SF Golf, Valley Club, Pacific Dunes) and George Waters (Pinehurst #2, Cal Club, Sebonack, Rosapenna).
I cant comment intelligently on the core subject of this thread. I do know that our bunkers are stunning and that these guys are masters of their craft. The way they played "leap frog" with Wadsworth was amazing to see.

Peter Pallotta

Re: shaper lineage and how it plays out in the future
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2014, 10:30:50 AM »
Tom, Mike - thanks for indulging me. Ian Mackenzie had the good grace and sense to note that he couldn't comment intelligently on the core subject here -- neither can I, of course, so I hope you see that I'm just throwing out ideas/opinions to try to unpack some discussion.

That said: it seems to me that if the 'material' we're talking about is the earth/dirt, then some top-flight shapers can indeed be better than their material, i.e. can do more with that dirt than even an architect might realize or be able to do.  (I went to visit Joe Hancock when he still owned a golf course -- and what he'd done there on that modest course with the turf quality and with the shaping of some of the features he'd worked on/added was very impressive.)

But if the 'material' we're talking about is the design, then I'd suggest that even the best shapers are going to be limited in what they can accomplish/add to the whole. For example: I can't think of one 1980s design that featured fairway containment mounding where that mounding looked anything but lousy -- sure, on some courses it looked less lousy than on others, but I've got no evidence that even an Oscar-winning shaper could do anything to make those designs/that design feature look any better.

Peter


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: shaper lineage and how it plays out in the future
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2014, 12:37:48 PM »
Peter,
Sounds like we can agree that great sites trump it all :)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: shaper lineage and how it plays out in the future
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2014, 01:06:22 PM »
everyone I have kept and actually have working for me now was trained originally by Maxie w Pete Dye and PB or little Stevie Lucy :)

 These were the beginnings of the shaper/builder we see today.  BUT.....where I'm trying to go with this is:  I'm not sure there is much training ground and practice left to train shapers today for the future.  Guys tire of the life and it will not take but just a few more years and the really good shapers will be minimal.  Their tree will be the key to good golf course sin 20 years.  Otherwise a designer has to begin anew and it is a slow learning curve..it may even be that shapers are as individual to a specific designer as the designer himself...that would be good....

Mike:

There was a lot in your post and with its lack of punctuation I am still trying to get to it all.  ;)

First off, you mentioned Max Robinson [who I worked for briefly in Clarksburg] and Steve Lucciola [P.B.'s college buddy, who worked with me at Piping Rock].  I am not sure either of those two fit your profile of being a student of golf or golf architecture, but they were great guys who knew how to get things done.  Lucy is the one who said to P.B. one night in Savannah, "Are you sure you want to tell Tommy everything?  Because he is going to remember it all."

We have certainly seen lots of new guys come through our program over the past 15-20 years.  A few will make it as architects, others as shapers who help make an architect's life easier ... there are not many big-time construction projects nowadays where you won't find one or more of my former interns working.  I would rather do that than take on guys from other programs ... no doubt there is a lot of talent out there, but they are not all good listeners.  [Jerame Miller was an exception to this rule.]

You are right though that the scarcity of work makes it harder to keep finding opportunities for inexperienced guys to learn.  Just keeping their three teachers busy enough is hard enough on me.




Jerame is a good listener?  Interesting, few good listeners are such prolific talkers.  ;) Good guy either way.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: shaper lineage and how it plays out in the future
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2014, 02:52:23 PM »
We have certainly seen lots of new guys come through our program over the past 15-20 years.  A few will make it as architects, others as shapers who help make an architect's life easier ... there are not many big-time construction projects nowadays where you won't find one or more of my former interns working.  I would rather do that than take on guys from other programs ... no doubt there is a lot of talent out there, but they are not all good listeners.  [Jerame Miller was an exception to this rule.]




Jerame is a good listener?  Interesting, few good listeners are such prolific talkers.  ;) Good guy either way.

Now the poor sentence construction is on me.  I meant that we were happy to work with Jerame even though he had worked on others' projects for some time ... not that he was a good listener  ;)

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: shaper lineage and how it plays out in the future
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2014, 12:49:59 PM »
Great points Mike...go man go...too tired to type....but I will just a little more.

Working with two very talented career shapers while building Tigers course down here in Cabo...Mark Burger and Joe Titzer...both of whom have built many courses and have a total understanding of the major Archies styles and taste (and if left on their own they could probably improve the tastes). They have a social media network with other shapers worldwide that exchanges news and work knowledge of who's doing whatever and whats on line etc...very interesting and of late I have come to realize that our design/build trade is/and has become very Guild-like in essence, with different component parts all working together to produce a unique product that is not produced on a mass scale.

Enough said, but I am very proud to be a part of the Guild and the Guild product.

paul!  has somebody hijacked your computer? rhic.

well actually rhic it was me...not sure why really...I know I was double parked at the time, might have been some kind of stress release.

good to hear from you - all the best! :)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca