Pontefract and District GC - MacKenzie????

[Duncan Cheslett]

I played Pontefract and District yesterday in a society event. On viewing their website beforehand I was surprised to find bold claims being made about Dr Mac's involvement in extending the course to eighteen holes.

http://www.pdgc.co.uk/history/

I had never heard mention of Pontefract in MacKenzie's resume so checked the Timeline to no avail. I asked the Pro about it on arrival and when I introduced myself as a member of the Alister MacKenzie Society he looked a bit nervous. "We have got a few MacKenzie greens" was the best he could come up with!


I found Pontefract to be a pleasant enough bog standard parkland course in nice condition with excellent facilities. As I sit at my computer the following morning I can remember almost no details of the architecture, despite winning a very close match with the final putt on the 18th.

Did MacKenzie ever go there or is the club's claim completely spurious?

[Jon Wiggett]

Duncan,

I have played Ponti a few times and it is not a Dr Mac design in the true sense. My recollection is that he had done a routing for them but that was the extent of the work he did. How detailed the routing was I do not know. As you say a pleasant course though from my visits it was definitely the warm welcome from the membership and clubhouse atmosphere that made the trips there something to look forward to.

Jon

[Niall C]

Duncan

Not sure whether Wing Commander Crafter has this one on his radar or not. It's entirely possible.

One thing I'll say though in defence of this particular pro's is that if you asked nearly all pro's about the history of their hundred year old course, I suspect that 99% of them would look a bit sheepish. The history of golf course design isn't necessarily something that appeals to all.

Anyway, was the point of this thread not just to boast about your winning putt ?

Niall

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Calling Neil Crafter who knows everything!

I played there once, years ago, and remember little of it. It's better known for growing forced rhubarb.

[Tom_Doak]

It is pretty difficult to prove MacKenzie was NOT there, unless you can find details about a different architect who WAS there when MacKenzie was supposed to have done his work.  However, if they don't have a map or a report or something to prove the connection, it's pretty meaningless and they shouldn't advertise it.

Where is Pontefract, anyway?  I've never heard of it.

[Neil_Crafter]

There is a Pontefract plan drawn by Mackenzie which I will try and post tomorrow along with what else I have on his involvement there. Neil

[David_Tepper]

"Where is Pontefract, anyway?" 

Pontefract is southeast of Leeds.

[Adam Lawrence]

The MacKenzie plan is on the history page of the club's website, though it is reproduced so small you can't really make anything out.

[RJ_Daley]

Having had a glance at their website, I just wonder if it is totally unique that they have "Funeral Tea Catering", or do other clubs do that.   All in all, it seems like it might be a fairly good idea, particularly for dearly departed members.  I'd be all in for a real Irish wake at a real Irish community course. 

[Jon Wiggett]

RJ,

golf clubs are a popular venue for "Funeral Teas".

Pontefract is not unique. There are many courses in Yorkshire that have some Mackenzie influence. I grew up thinking that that was the normal standard of GCA but then I played the Belfry

Jon

[Neil_Crafter]

Mackenzie certainly planned an 18 hole course for Pontefract, there is much evidence of that. Here is a report in the Yorkshire Post (Leeds) of 1 May 1920:



This ties in with the information in the club's history book that Mackenzie visited the site in April 1920 - Duncan, this date is in the Mac Timeline, so you must have missed it 

He prepared a plan for an 18 hole course, although initially the club had said they could only afford to build nine holes in the first instance, but Mackenzie explained they could build 9 as part of an overall 18 hole layout.



Mackenzie recommended Franks Harris Bros as the contractor - in the days of the Colt Mackenzie Alison partnership they seemed to be the partnership's preferred contractor - but once the club did their sums they realised they didn't want to pay for a contractor and Mackenzie as well. Mac then offered to superintend the works himself for 150 pounds but it seemed the club went off on their own, engaging Williamson, the professional at Garforth to supervise the works. It would seem that Mackenzie was sidelined. How closely Mackenzie's routing was followed by Williamson is hard to say, but claims of "Mackenzie" greens might seem a little ambitious if Mac was not involved. Whether he did draw green plans that they later followed is not known, but somehow I doubt it. The club appears to have been happy with the services Williamson gave them and the course he constructed for them.

Just looking on Google Maps the course today bears no resemblance that I could see to Mackenzie's routing plan at all.

So is there any Mac in today's course? Seems highly doubtful to me. So another case of Mackenzie planning a course but his plans not being followed, yet the claim being made that it is a "Mackenzie" course.

[RJ_Daley]

Does anyone find it interesting that 4 greens on the back 9, return close to the CH?

[Jon Wiggett]

Does anyone find it interesting that 4 greens on the back 9, return close to the CH?

Good for matchplay as it means you are close to home when the match is likely to end.

Jon

[Adam Lawrence]

Remember that in the north of England, 'MacKenzie green' can often just mean a two-tiered green. It doesn't necessarily mean Dr Mac was involved.

[Neil_Crafter]

Thanks Adam , yes I understand the northern terminology. But in this case the Mackenzie greens at Pontefract are not Mackenzie Mackenzie greens!

[Bill_McBride]

Does anyone find it interesting that 4 greens on the back 9, return close to the CH?

Good for matchplay as it means you are close to home when the match is likely to end.

Jon

And for emergency whisky loops!