Oak Hill

[Tom_Doak]

It appears to be driver-wedge on every par 4 except for 14 (which is driver-chip with wedge, or five iron-wedge).  Unless you miss a fairway, in which case it's driver-wedge-wedge!

Can this be the same course which the USGA dissed as a US Open site years ago because there were "no holes where you could make a double bogey"?  Apparently they didn't know about fertilizing the roughs back in the seventies.

Notice how no one on TV mentions the Fazio changes to the golf course?  Among them, the 18th green was moved forward to the brink of the hollow, and the bank was converted to rough so you'd have to fly it in ... and they added that pond on 15, which you could barely see on TV yesterday, and which didn't seem to scare any of those guys too much since it's more than 15 feet away from the hole.

Not sure I think any more of the course now than before, but as Bob Cupp would say, it still appears to be relevant.

[Dan Herrmann]

"Oak Hill is an obsolete golf course" - Tom Watson, 2003 (During a press conference on Wednesday)

He was making a plea to shorten the golf ball by lamenting the loss of Oak Hill, Merion, etc...

[Jim_Michaels]

Peter Kostis remarked yesterday that the scores were "proof that the technology was not out of control" or something to that effect. Come on, that is absurd. If the only way to keep them under control is to remove strategy from the equation completely, I would say that technology has had disastrous effect. Is there any decision making on a course set up in this fashion? This is pure execution. When setup removes any possibility for choice or recovery it creates boring golf, for my money. And technology has forced us to this type of setup. I mean, did you guys see those pin positions (especially the first two days)?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Part of the problem is...... all of the viewers who come away thinking that this is what their golf course should look like,
narrow fairways, more length, deeper rough and more trees.

This is a golf course that has been set up to challenge and test the greatest players in the world, not the quarter-finalists in the class C club championship.

 

[Tim_Weiman]

Jim Micheals:

Yes, I'm getting sick of television commentators like Peter Kostis. They always present their views as if they are giving "equal time" to arguments in defense of technology and the never ending lengthening of golf courses.

Just once I'd like to hear one of those guys have the courage to say that the whole golf technology arms race IS out of control.

[Craig Disher]

I know I'm overstating the case here, but it seems that any course with adequate length could be set up to play as difficult as Oak Hill - narrow the fairways and grow the rough, especially around the greens, to 4-8". The bunkers have no meaning has hazards. After seeing Mike Weir play a 160-yard 8 iron out of a "deep" fairway bunker onto the green (can't remember the hole) while others who had shots of similar distance from the rough had to hack out with very uncertain results.

Pat Mucci's point is spot on.  This type of appearance certainly influenced the decisions my club made on how to renovate.

[Matt Kardash]

Does Oak Hill even have bunkers? i know i haven't seen to many if any bunker shots....I think the local muni could host a major at 6000 yards if the fairways were 15 yards wide and the rough 8 inches. The course would be just as "valid" or "worthy"

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim Weiman,

You have to remember that Peter Kostis is a paid staff member of the Titleist division.

I've had these discussions with him over the years and his views are in complete disagreement with mine.

He indicated to me, that since Golf is the only sport where another individual doesn't contact the ball, the golfer should have his choice of ball.  I countered that there was no goalie in bowling, but we were still miles apart.

It would be difficult for Peter to espouse any other position as a paid consultant/employee of Titleist, and I think that you can understand that.  
Most of us don't bite the hand that feeds us.

He's a very nice fellow, a good player, and a good teacher.
Just understand the foundation or forces influencing his views.

[JohnV]

I am constantly amazed at how many of these idiot pros and announcers think that if you rolling back the ball means coming out with one standardized ball and so you wouldn't have a choice as to which ball to play.  If they changed the ODS to roll it back 10% or whatever, it would just mean that each manufacturer would make new balls that went that much less distance, not that there would be "one ball for all" or whatever.  They could still play Titleist, Nike, Calloway or Hogan if they wanted, just that each of them would go less distance.

As for Oak Hill and the way it has been setup, I agree with CDisher that the bunkers seem to be less of a hazard than the rough which is really stupid.  If you are going to grow 8 inch rough, you should put 6 inches of new sand in the bunkers and take away the rakes.  Or take out the sand, fill them with water and put yellow lines around them.

[Matt_Ward]

I can only wish Oak Hill decided to cut the amount of trees that Oakmont has carried forward with.

I have played Oak Hill / East a few times and been to the '89 Open and '95 Ryder Cup and the course we are witnessing this week is really about "defensive golf" to the max. I don't find this very entertaining and I have to say the course could be much more if the spirit of what it was originally intended was brought back to life.

When you grow 6-7 inch rough and narrow the fairways to 25 or less yards you get this boring Ohio State / Michigan game adventure that used to feature the constant parade of "run left" followed by "run right" and then for even more excitement "run up the middele." Is this really what world class championship golf should be about?

The PGA prior to this year's event at Oak Hill used careful considerations in preparing for their grand event. This set-up is primarily putting many people to do the following:

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

I understand. My problem is the blurring of the lines between journalism and commercialism.

By chance you my have seen Maria Bartiromo's recent interview with Citigroup Chairman Sandy Weihl. Sure, some faulted Bartiromo for throwing Weihl nothing but softballs. However, at least she began the interview by disclosing she owned Citigroup stock.

The networks haven't established the same procedures for journalists like Kostis. Either he should stay away from commenting on the technology issue altogther - (there were journalists who felt Bartiromo should have been excluded from interviewing Weihl) or he should be required to disclose his commercial ties to a leading equipment manufacturer each time he goes on the air.

The golf technology arms race is nothing more than a big waste of money. The networks should be covering that part of the story or they should tell guys like Kostis to keep his mouth shut.

Tom Doak:

My apologies my at least semi hijacking the thread.

[Joe Hancock]

I haven't watched a lot of this years PGA....after realizing the punishment of not driving the ball perfectly, I lost interest in the whole course. Probably not a fair assesment from my recliner, but that's my feeling.

My son and I are both in the business of maintaining golf courses. We saw some of those aeriel views, and couldn't think of anything more artificial looking. How dark green can a golf course possibly be? Is that a television dictated maintenence program? With some of the newer cultivars of bluegrass and ryegrass, dark green is easy. Did Oak Hill overseed with these types of grasses just to appease the camera?....Ugh....

Joe

[Paul Richards]

Oak Hill and Olympia Fields are both very similar golf courses.

Oak Hill seems to be getting a very solid review for a major championship site.  One point I'd like to make is that if Olympia had the benefit of the favorable weather that Oak Hill is experiencing, it would be held in the same regard.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim Weiman,

I think one could make a case that "journalists" generally
DON'T disclose their "position" when reporting on issues.

They want candor and disclosure from everyone they cover, but seem to exempt themselves from the same standards.

I think the phrase "yellow journalism" has been around longer than cable and TV.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom Doak,

I know Fazio moved the green a bit to fit in bigger bleachers, but I think the bank on 18 has always been rough. I remember a few tour pros I know complaining about that bank before the 89 Open. They thought it was once a par 5, but a bad par 4 with a long iron in your hands.  How times have changed.....and I'll bet Curtis Strange would agree!  

I pulled out my 89 Open program just now, and it shows it as rough.  I also attended the 95 Ryder Cup and recall it as rough then.

I think it was always rough.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff,

The changes I referred to were done in about 1975 by George and Tom Fazio.

Ross's 18th green was about thirty yards further back toward the clubhouse, where some of the grandstands are now.  There was fairway through the valley, and then about twenty yards of fairway between the crest of the valley and the front of the green ... so you could land a long iron just over the valley and bounce it on!

Imagine that!

[Darren_Kilfara]

Several quick points:

--Ewan Murray (Sky Sports TV commentator in the UK) kept proudly citing that Oak Hill is the "10th-ranked course in the United States". Which rankings would those be, I wonder? (And can I have some of what the panel in question has been smoking?)

--The striped mowing patterns in the fairway were out of control. Between them and that shadow cast by the TV tower on the 15th green, I'd be hard-pressed to think of a major championship course in recent memory that suffered aesthetically at man's hands as much as Oak Hill did.

--Oak Hill excited me as much as Olympia Fields, i.e. very little. Suffice it to say that I feel like I've come a long way since 1995 in terms of appreciating architecture on television...

--The above statements have nothing WHATSOEVER with the top four on the final leaderboard. The top four could have been Els/Mickelson/Weir/Woods (in any order) and I'd think the same thing.

--At the end of the day, when a golf course is set up like Oak Hill was, does it really matter which of Oak Hill/Winged Foot/Congressional/Medinah/Olympia Fields/Baltusrol/Oakland Hills the course actually is? I swear, you could pick a random hole from any one of the above courses and show me a helicopter fly-by of it, and with very rare exceptions I wouldn't begin to be able to correctly place it on the right golf course...

Cheers,
Darren

[Jeff Goldman]

Darren,

That's why hosting a major, having a major set-up, how a course looks or plays in a major, on TV etc. (how can you see anything on tv?), has NOTHING to do with the quality of a golf course.  It's up to us, actually you more connected folks, to whatever extent we can, to stop the barbarians at the gate!  What would happen to the ranking of Pine Valley, NGLA, or other courses if they held a tournament there and the pros tore it up?  It wouldn't be any less of a course, but the bad press would hurt among the masses.  Let's see what happens to Olympia Fields in the next ranking after it got pilloried by the press (if it had the conditions that Oak Hill had, scores might have been higher, but the course wouldn't be any better or worse).

Jeff Goldman

[Patrick_Mucci]

Darren Kilfara,

I would agree, there is a morphing taking place that is making the holes lose their distinct character, irrespective of the golf course.

[George Blunt]

I think "Glory's NEXT shot" will be the Heinekin Open here at Royal Melbourne in Nov/Dec.  

If the drought we are having continues, with watering restrictions preventing watering of fairways and rough - RMGC will be brown and very fast running - with little or no rough.  

It should be superb, and offer everyone here something to look forward to.

Cheers,

George

PS I found washing up after last night's dinner party more interesting than watching the final round this morning - Micheel's last shot excluded.

[Chris Kane]

George,
It may be brown to start with, but don't forget that the Tour will seemingly resort to anything to keep the course nice and green.  During a practice round at the last Heineken, one of the grounds staff started spraying some kind of green powder onto the 12W fairway.  The look on Mike Clayton's face said it all.

matt kardash,
Thats the best comment I've seen about Oak Hill this week.  The way these courses seem to be set up, the architecture seems largely irrelevant.  The only thing that really distinguishes these top courses (setup in this way) are the green complexes.

[George Blunt]

Chris,

If it stays Phase 2 water restrictions until the tournament, they are going to need a lot of green powder, the bore water only accounts for 20% of their needs.

George

[Chris Kane]

George,
Good!  

I guess its a fine line between what we'd consider "underwatering to achieve firm and fast conditions" and a water shortage to the extent that the turf is in danger.  I'd hope there is enough rainfall to ensure that the turf remains healthy, but remains the light brown colour that looks so perfect.

[John Foley]

A few notes from being there this week.

-The deep rough, the over-greening & softness comes from a July & half of August of incredibel amount of rain & low temp. Lets just say here in NY it's avery easy to grow grass this year. If this was either of the last 2 years, you would have seen a MUCH firmer & faster course w/ much less rough.

-The one thing that I am constsntly amazed at walking around is the movement of the land. Holes such as 9, 10, 13, 14 18 are great use of the topography.

-Bunkers. Didn't realize it but other than 11, I don't recall many bunker shots at all. A few from the 4th & 18th fairway, but not alot. I'm sure fimer & faster would have brought a few more into play, but in generral the pro's we're avoiding them.

One last note on the quality of play. Didn't see any TV coverage. The major players (Woods, Michelson, Vj & to some extent Els & Weir) played pretty horrible. Weak tee shots, poor putting and short games. Micheel & Campbell we're far and away the best ball strikers and cluthc putters for the week & especially on the weekend.

[Michael Moore]

I didn't like the starter bellowing at the top of his lungs to send people off in the third round, and I'm glad they found someone else for the final round.