[Jim Colton]

Discuss.

[Will Lozier]

Certainly 18 fun holes to play and interesting because one would confront all sorts of bunker styles and vastly different green complexes.  I'd certainly give it a go.  Also a great place to finish a round.  Obviously finishing so far away from the start is odd.

[Bill_McBride]

You skipped one of my favorite holes!  #8 Pacific Dunes, love that slope to the right of the green.

[Jaeger Kovich]

You could have used the open space at the bottom better. The way you routed it, you would play it as 19 or even 20 holes every time, replaying #3-4, to get back to #1, and out. (not that mr 155 holes cares!)

Can you find a better solution for maybe #11 and/or #15? You have a lot of water playing up the golfers left, and very few holes playing AT the water.

[William_G]

I would happy to play that and would play 20 to get back to the clubhouse

[Don_Mahaffey]

Of all the holes there, was this the best composite you could come up with? Or where you trying to follow some formula?
You really like North-South oriented holes?

[Shane Wright]

Don, good points but both TOC and NBW have most holes going in an either/or (out/in) and.it works really well. Switching this direction on the same nine is interestin.

[Jon Wiggett]

Both TOC and NBW along with many other historical links good reasons for their out and back system. This proposed routing does not does not and does not even finish back at the starting point or anywhere near it. Were it any other resort than Bandon and it would probably get roundly derided.

Sorry Jim, but a pretty pointless thread

Jon

[Jaeger Kovich]

I prefer the "artistic routings" which use a dominant feature or 2 to route holes to and from, and think there is a chance for Jim to rework this routing into something more of that spirit. Out/back routings that go up and down the coast do not provide the same type of drama/crescendo/climax that is possible to achieve by playing at the water from at least a slightly more varied approach... This is what makes a number of Mackenzie's routings as well as Pac Dunes' so good.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Don, good points but both TOC and NBW have most holes going in an either/or (out/in) and.it works really well. Switching this direction on the same nine is interestin.

Shane, while I agree with Jon about this thread being silly, I am curious why Jim selected this composite course.

[Chris Shaida]

In my ideal open-jawed layout the walk from 18 back to wherever I needed to go (clubhouse, parking lot, hotel room) would (a) not tempt me to play or otherwise wonder about other holes along the way and (b) be interesting and beautiful.

[Jim Colton]

Of all the holes there, was this the best composite you could come up with? Or where you trying to follow some formula?
You really like North-South oriented holes?

Don,

 I admit freely that I'm not an industry insider or routing expert. After all, I came in last in the Armchair Architect contest. This truly was the best I could come up with. I'm sure if you didn't find it to be so silly, you could do much better.

 The holes out there are pretty north-south oriented to begin with. Is that a critique against Pacific Dunes?

 The first thing I asked myself is could you even improve on Pac Dunes? Essentially you are trading 1, 8, 9, 10, 17 & 18 and a finish where you start for 6 & 7 at Old Mac and 8, 4, 5 & 6 at Bandon Dunes. That's not a bad trade-off. If Pac Dunes is a 10, I think this composite course is as well.

 Jaegs, I tried to get 16 at BD in there originally, but you end up painting yourself into a corner. That would've added another ocean right hole. I'm open to suggestions as I'm sure you can do better.

 I happen to think this course would be fun and something that you could hypothetically try in the late afternoon on your third round. I like the pacing of the round with how it dips back and forth to the ocean with an exhilirating closing hole. I think most would just keep playing from there though.

 I don't think it's formulaic at all even though it is par 72 (37-35) with four par 3's & 5's. You still have back to back par 3's and the middle of the round has six straight par 4's.

 

[Tim Bert]

While it take away an ocean hole, I think I'd rather walk a slight bit further and play lower 10 PD instead of 6 BD. Otherwise looks really cool.

[Matthew Essig]

The scorecard would look like this:

Hole:              1      2       3       4       5      6        7        8        9      10      11      12      13       14      15      16      17      18   Total
Black:          555   363   145   539   338   368   464   359    410    428    161    148    529    463    199    316    499    444    6728
Green:        520   345    128   504   338   335   436   342    362    400   153     131    507    449    181    288   476    390     6285
Gold:           467   322    119    492   301   335  377    321   340    374    126     114    476    410    163   288    476    371    5842
Orange:       401   311    100   452   292   275   314   290    308    321    111     96     449     369    133   267    452    336    5248
Royal Blue:  354   195   100   320    200   180  239   220    228    280    111     96     330     320     115   167    309   250     4040
Par:              5       4       3      5       4       4      4       4      4        4        3       3        5         4         3       4       5       4         72

PD: yellow
BD: orange
Old Mac Holes: red

[Matthew Essig]

You could start at the Old Mac shack on the north end and play 21 holes with the addition of Old Mac 8-10

The scorecard would look like this:

Hole:      1       2       3**    4       5       6       7      8       9      10      11        12       13      14      15      16      17      18     19     20      21  
Black:    181   416   465   555   363   145   539   338   368   464   359    410    428    161    148    529    463    199    316    499    444    7790
Green:   170  352   440    520   345    128   504   338   335   436   342    362    400   153     131    507    449    181    288   476    390     7247
Gold:     152   343   383   467   322    119    492   301   335  377    321   340    374    126     114    476    410    163   288    476    371    6750
Orange  130   284   369   401   311    100   452   292   275   314   290    308    321    111     96     449     369    133   267    452    336    6060  
Blue:      121  231   323   354   195   100   320    200   180   239   220    228    280    111     96     330     320     115   167    309   250     4689
Par:         3       4     4/5**   5      4      3      5        4       4      4        4      4       4        3       3        5        4       3       4        5       4      83/84**

PD Holes: yellow
BD Holes: orange
Old Mac Holes: red

**A fun addition could be playing to the Old Mac 5th green from Old Mac 10 (Hole 3) View from "behind the green."**

Photo Credit: Mark Saltzman


Playing this routing would be a day I would never forget. Spectacular.

[Matthew Essig]

As a reference to Jim's routing:

1 Old Mac: 6
2 Old Mac: 7
3 Pac Dunes: 14
4 Pac Dunes: 15
5 Pac Dunes: 16
6 Pac Dunes: 2
7 Pac Dunes: 7
8 Bandon Dunes: 8
9 Bandon Dunes: 4
10 Bandon Dunes: 5
11 Bandon Dunes: 6
12 Pac Dunes: 11
13 Pac Dunes: 12
14 Pac Dunes: 4
15 Pac Dunes: 5
16 Pac Dunes: 6
17 Pac Dunes: 3
18 Pac Dunes: 13

[David_Elvins]

It is easy to forget how close together the three courses are until you see a routing like that. 

[Michael George]

I don't think an open jaw works at somewhere like Bandon.  It can work at Sand Hills or Dismal River because they are so remote from the clubhouse to begin with and you take carts to the course.  Bandon and Ballyneal, being all walking, need to be routed to and from the clubhouse.

Also, while your finish would be great, I would like to get to the ocean during the front 9.  This routing is like Spyglass in reverse.  The ocean is used up on the last several holes.  When you see the ocean at multiple times, the routing has an ebb and flow that is better than all at once.  Tom talks about this at length in his posts and books so I will defer to someone that knows what he is talking about, but that is the idea.

[Garland Bayley]

What's going on here? Jim and Don post on this thread today, and then bag the website and disappear?

[Emile Bonfiglio]

What's going on here? Jim and Don post on this thread today, and then bag the website and disappear?

Yeah, I don't understand that either

[Pete_Pittock]

I think its a forced time out. They'll be back, maybe before Tiger.

[JC Jones]

I think its a forced time out. They'll be back, maybe before Tiger.

Not true.

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