[Ben Stephens]

Dear GCA,

Having just watched BBC East Midlands Today News this evening there was a report that Leicester City Council are seriously considering closing both Humberstone Heights and Western Park Golf Courses and selling the land on for development. There used to be 3 public golf courses in Leicester which also includes Oadby Municipal which had 9 holes inside Leicester Racecourse and 9 holes in heavily treelined area which is now closed. The racecourse is considering reopening the 9 holes outside the racecourse only.

This seems to be a current trend that is happening in England regarding public golf courses run by councils. Have you heard or experienced this in you local area?

Having played scratch league matches against both Western Park and Humberstone Heights there was always a concern by the members that the council was going to close at least one course. I was surprised to see that it is both that are threatened by closure. Does that deprive golfers that can't afford to be members of proprietary or private golf clubs which therefore makes golf become more and more elitist.

Cheers
Ben
 

[Ben Stephens]

Link to Oadby Golf Club via www.golfmissinglinks.co.uk

http://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/england/central-east/leicestershire-a-rutland/1237-eng-ce-oadby-golf-club

[Paul Gray]

Any chance of a buy out? Probably a ridiculous question.

[Jon Wiggett]

Yes, it is sad continuation of the sad trend of council decisions from the 90's.

Jon

[Tom Kelly]

It's sad but not all that surprising given the central location of many council run courses will more than likely make the land far more valuable to the council than the course itself, especially in times of cost cutting for councils across the country.

I remember there being talk of Bulwell Forest Golf Course in Nottingham, a council owned course being closed but I believe the members grouped together and managed to buy it out or at least come to some agreement for it to remain open although I'm not sure exactly what the current situation is.

It was the original home of Notts Golf Club before they relocated to Hollinwell and although very narrow at times it's always rock hard and has a few cool features here and there which make it more fun than most council courses. Also despite it being abit of a notorious neighbourhood the members were always great fun and really friendly whenever I played against them in club scratch matches and they produced loads of good junior golfers who usually then moved on to one of the better courses in the north of the county, Hollinwell, Coxmoor et al.

[Ben Stephens]

From local news

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Western-Park-Humberstone-Heights-golf-courses/story-20792070-detail/story.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-26545234

[Ben Stephens]

Any chance of a buy out? Probably a ridiculous question.

Someone could buy both courses and its whether they would want to develop houses etc on it or keep it as a golf course. I think it will be more likely for development purposes.

[Greg Taylor]

Tamworth Municipal also under the kosh, "if the club was privately owned it would have shut years ago".

That's the logic offered up anyway.

Greg

[Matt Day]

It seems that this trend will be seen in many countries, as land values increase and populations grow many councils are going to be faced with pressure to use golf courses for other purposes. In Perth in the last year we have seen one course closed to allow a football stadium to be built and another be rezoned for housing. That's around 10% of the public golf course stock gone in one year.

The course I'm at needs two zoning changes (local and state) to allow development so its a lengthy process, but in 20-30 years time its hard to see how 122 hectares (300 acres) of land ten minutes from the CBD and one minute from the beach will remain intact as a  36 hole public course.

A land development across the road is currently selling for over $2,000 per square metre.

[Tom Kelly]

From the BBC article;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-26545234

"Last year, Western Park was costing £7 a head in subsidy for every round that was played.... A lot of people are choosing to play at other golf courses in the city and county at a similar cost to the city council courses or sometimes at a cheaper rate."

Are all the other courses making a £7 loss on every round? I doubt it. If people are choosing to play elsewhere it is likely that some if not all of them are better courses which are likely to be in better condition too.

It is the same principle that confuses me so much about the privatisation of so many services, if a private company can make a profit from it, why can't the government/council? Am I completely missing something?

[Jon Wiggett]

From the BBC article;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-26545234

"Last year, Western Park was costing £7 a head in subsidy for every round that was played.... A lot of people are choosing to play at other golf courses in the city and county at a similar cost to the city council courses or sometimes at a cheaper rate."

Are all the other courses making a £7 loss on every round? I doubt it. If people are choosing to play elsewhere it is likely that some if not all of them are better courses which are likely to be in better condition too.

It is the same principle that confuses me so much about the privatisation of so many services, if a private company can make a profit from it, why can't the government/council? Am I completely missing something?

Tom,

it is a lot to do with identity. Local authority workers do not usually feel over loyal or proud towards their employers. That coupled with a lack of budget responsibility and you end up with a 'what's the point' attitude.  In private industry you know who you are working for and if your area of work does well then you will probably get rewarded.

Leeds in the 1980/90s is a good example of a council making a good deal of profit out of their courses and ploughing it into various other recreational schemes but not into the golf. One of these schemes was the swimming centre which was lorded nationally for being so good but was always making a loss where as the golf was ignored.

Jon

[Lou_Duran]

The course I'm at needs two zoning changes (local and state) to allow development so its a lengthy process, but in 20-30 years time its hard to see how 122 hectares (300 acres) of land ten minutes from the CBD and one minute from the beach will remain intact as a  36 hole public course.

A land development across the road is currently selling for over $2,000 per square metre.

Can the $2k/s.m. be indicative of the land value for the council courses?  At $186/s.f., it must be a very small tract or highly unusual (tiny sites in Manhattan where rents are mind-boggling sell for $400-$800/s.f.).   If the council can get anything approaching $2.44 Billion, they should sell the courses immediately.  With the windfall, they can take care of many broader social needs for years to come with maybe some money left over for 18 holes a bit out of town.

BTW, historically, golf has been used to warehouse land until time and growth makes a higher use possible.  Typically, these have been driving ranges and nine hole par-3 facilities, where development costs aren't excessive and positive cash flow can be generated.  Being that many here are very animated in the pursuit of policies aimed at promoting the "public good", we might take some solace that the council is seeking to benefit 98% of the population who do not play golf, albeit at some expense to the 2% who do.

A friend of mine who was a very successful land investor lived through the toughs of the economy by selling art work which he purchased strategically when his business was doing well.  We can think of our local governments doing something similar.  As the demographics continue to turn south in Europe and the U.S., let's just hope we don't have to break into the silver.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Lou's point makes the most sense to me. It is in the best interests of 'the whole' to develop this land for housing, it is a huge windfall, perhaps making the land worth £750,000 per acre rather than £7,500 as a loss making golf course. Selling a golf course for development in the UK is like hitting the jackpot of all jackpots. No need for sadness, it will make the other courses stronger.

Whilst I agree with JWs comments about council's and their beheavour, not many golf courses even realise they are losing £7 per round, though many are if they discount inside their basic PPR....ie £600,000 cost to run, 600 members at £700 =£23.33 per round Your PPR (based on 40 rd) then sale silly greenfees at £15 per time...because there is a space.

[Paul Gray]

As ever, Adrian, strong logic.

I'm actually a big believer in local authorities providing sports facilities for local people but not at a cost to the tax payer as a whole and not when the land is so needed because of thirty+ years of chronic underdevelopment in housing stock.

Portsmouth Golf Course is a case in point. It actually has the potential to be the best publicly accessible course around, bar none. Sadly though, poor management over a prolonged period sees it in a very shoddy state, despite sitting on a naturally draining chalky site. Green fees can now be picked up for as little as £7. It sits on Portsdown Hill with views of an island city and the English Channel in one direction and the South Downs in the other. It can only be a matter of time.....

[Jon Wiggett]

Paul,

I am also a big believer in local authorities providing sports facilities for local people and not at the cost of the tax payer however the reason it costs the tax payer something instead of making a profit is mismanagement as is the reason for the housing shortage is mismanagement of the planning system. If local authorities were run with any sort of efficiency there would be plenty of leisure facilities that paid their way and enough housing.

Selling off leisure facilities to build housing is perpetuating the problem not solving it. I occasionally played the muni just outside Portsmouth (Southsea?) in the 1980s/90s and when talking to the maintenance guys there it was obvious that they had no real training, pride or connection with either their employer (council) or the customer. It is therefor no wonder that the condition of the course left much to be desired.

Jon

[Matt Day]

The course I'm at needs two zoning changes (local and state) to allow development so its a lengthy process, but in 20-30 years time its hard to see how 122 hectares (300 acres) of land ten minutes from the CBD and one minute from the beach will remain intact as a  36 hole public course.

A land development across the road is currently selling for over $2,000 per square metre.

Can the $2k/s.m. be indicative of the land value for the council courses?  At $186/s.f., it must be a very small tract or highly unusual (tiny sites in Manhattan where rents are mind-boggling sell for $400-$800/s.f.).   If the council can get anything approaching $2.44 Billion, they should sell the courses immediately.  With the windfall, they can take care of many broader social needs for years to come with maybe some money left over for 18 holes a bit out of town.

BTW, historically, golf has been used to warehouse land until time and growth makes a higher use possible.  Typically, these have been driving ranges and nine hole par-3 facilities, where development costs aren't excessive and positive cash flow can be generated.  Being that many here are very animated in the pursuit of policies aimed at promoting the "public good", we might take some solace that the council is seeking to benefit 98% of the population who do not play golf, albeit at some expense to the 2% who do.

A friend of mine who was a very successful land investor lived through the toughs of the economy by selling art work which he purchased strategically when his business was doing well.  We can think of our local governments doing something similar.  As the demographics continue to turn south in Europe and the U.S., let's just hope we don't have to break into the silver.

Lou
That's the price for land in this area, nothing unusual about the sale price apart from the small block sizes (250-500 square metres). Perth is a very expensive place to live at the moment

The course was developed in 1932 when the only road past it was a wooden track to the beach.

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