Pine Valley: tree removal

[JESII]

Pat,

What constitutes a skyline green?

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
What do you think of # 1 as a skyline green?"

Pat:

Let me ask you what you think a chain-link fence, railroad tracks and a bunch or ugly looking houses would look like?

Look Patrick, would you just give up this ridiculous idea of yours of returning all the trees on that golf course to what they looked like in 1928 and settle for removing all the trees out of Mr Crump's old bunkering? Believe me you'd be plenty impressed.

People with some of the ideas on this course you have are just down-right dangerous. A bit of research would probably help you immensely......but on the other hand, maybe not.  

Sully:

To me a real skyline green is when the top profile line on the green is backdropped by sky. In other words all you see behind the green itself is sky.

[JESII]

Sully:

To me a real skyline green is when the top profile line on the green is backdropped by sky. In other words all you see behind the green itself is sky.

I was hoping Pat would write an answer to that same sentiment. It is a good bit different than simply eliminating the trees within 20 or 30 yards of the back edge of the green without recognizing that the train (when it is crossing) and the trees beyond it are still in view if you're back in the fairway attempting to hit to the green. I was actually on that green once as a caddy whe the train roared by, I promise you Pat, it's closer than you might think.

[TEPaul]

Sully:

You've got to understand people like Pat on something like this just talk up some uninformed purist line right out of the top of their hat without the slightest idea what might happen if someone actually did what they're recommending. If Pat ran that golf club and he cut every tree to look precisely like 1928 he'd probably be lynched by sane minded architectural analysts. One should try to consider that a man like Crump understood that course would probably take quite a few years to get the way he thought it should ideally be. The fact that trees apparently factored into that in some ways is something some of these myopic "know-nothings" on here just seem incapable of understanding and accepting. Some of the "tree hating" purists on this website can be as myopic and closed minded on the side of no trees as the most narrow minded "tree huggers" can be on the side of too many trees.

[Pat_Mucci]

JES II & TEPaul,

To my knowledge, only BMEWS, controlled by NORAD is capable of seeing below the horizon.

Take a look at a topo, and then tell me that standing in the fairway at 160 yards from the 1st green, that you can see below the rear level of the green ?

Feel free to extend your line of sight all the way to Philadelphia.

The towers of the Walt Whitman Bridge are visible from the high tee on # 18, but, the 1st fairway sits well below that point.

You have so much to learn and I only have a limited amount of time that I can devote to your education.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

You really are such a total idiiot in what you say on here it just cracks me up. Sure if you stood in the fairway of #1 at 160 yards out you may not see the chainlink fence, the RR tracks etc behind the green. But when you got onto the green you sure as hell would see those things and if someone like you cut down all those trees behind that green you'd be crucified as you should be.   Do everyone a favor and don't make these kinds of recommendations to a golf course until you know the nuances of it. Get to know a bit more about PVGC before you act like you know what they should do.

[Pat_Mucci]

TEPaul,

If you understood anything about blocking views from higher elevations you would know that you could block the view of the fence and tracks quite easily.

To start with, painting a chain link fence black makes it almost invisible.

And, if you have shrubs, undergrowth and trees that rise to the level of the fence or slightly higher, the fence can't be seen.

The same applies to the railroad tracks.

Aren't the railroad tracks more to the right of the first green rather than directly behind it until you hit a point in the direction of Clementon ?

When was the last time you stood on the 1st green and could see the second tee ?

It's almost impossible unless you're off the back of the 1st green.

So, if you can't see the second tee from the first green, I wouldn't worry about seeing the fence and tracks, especially since intervening growth blocks the view of same.

Remember, you're only cutting down trees to the point that they're beneath the visible horizon of the 1st green.

That leaves plenty of room for them to be of sufficient height to block the view of the fence and tracks.

I wish your learning curve was up to that of my other students.  But, for someone who took 3 years to get through the fifth grade, you're doing quite well.

[JESII]

I would be thankful if this conversation did not boil down to a pissing contest, much as I love pissing contests. It is Thanksgiving afterall.  


As to the first green at PV; a skyline green effect depends on one of two topographical occurrances, a significant rise in elevation from the approach position to the green, or a significant drop in elevation from the green to the area behind. The first must be much more common because the opportunities to place a green that backs up to the end of the world are less than finding one on the top of even a small hill (eg. #2 at PV). The first hole at PVGC has a slight (10 - 15 feet) dropoff around the back half of the green. The rise, from a normal approach position of 150 or 160 to the middle of the green, is minimal (maybe 5 feet). From the back edge of the green there is about 20 - 30 yards to the edge of the property. The railroad tracks start there with a fence on the property line. There are trees along those tracks and beyond that would be clearly in view from the fairway. There is no question that those trees (untouchable by PVGC) would eliminate the skyline effect you seek.

Now the question becomes whether or not the product is better without those trees, disregarding any skyline effect, but rather just an opening up of some congestion. A positive result; I prefer openness on a golf course. A negative result; clearing those specific trees adds nothing to the hole except for some potentially unwanted visuals outside of the property.  


"JES II,

I think you're forgetting that the 1st green is dramatically elevated from the land behind it, hence cutting trees immediately behind it, and to the right of the second tee would create the skyline green effect, without opening up unsightly views."

I guess i've just disagreed with this entire post almost verbatum Pat, so I'll expand a bit. The first green sits well above its immediate surrounds. This makes it very difficult recovering from green high or beyond. It does not however sit much above the fairway (in the driving area) so you will be challenged to create a real, full skyline effect. With the property line so close you cannot control what goes on outside your boundaries and most clubs prefer a buffer zone of trees and shrubs around their border.

[TEPaul]

"I would be thankful if this conversation did not boil down to a pissing contest, much as I love pissing contests. It is Thanksgiving afterall.

Sully:

It's not a pissing contest. Pat and I are fine friends---this is just the way we talk to each other.

Paint the fence and the railroad tracks black?!? Can you believe this joker??

Pat, why don't you suggest they just paint Clementon black or better yet paint it to look like some pastoral setting.

"Knock, knock, Uh, excuse me sir, we're from PVGC and we're here to paint your shitty looking house to look like a big bayberry bush. Do you mind? It won't cost you a thing?"

[Pat_Mucci]

As to the first green at PV; a skyline green effect depends on one of two topographical occurrances, a significant rise in elevation from the approach position to the green,
or a significant drop in elevation from the green to the area behind.

There is a significant drop off behind the 1st green, and then another significant drop to the right of the 2nd tee, which is behind the 1st green[/color]

The first must be much more common because the opportunities to place a green that backs up to the end of the world are less than finding one on the top of even a small hill (eg. #2 at PV).

The first hole at PVGC has a slight (10 - 15 feet) dropoff around the back half of the green. The rise, from a normal approach position of 150 or 160 to the middle of the green, is minimal (maybe 5 feet).

From the back edge of the green there is about 20 - 30 yards to the edge of the property. The railroad tracks start there with a fence on the property line. There are trees along those tracks and beyond that would be clearly in view from the fairway.

If the green is 15 feet or more above the ground in the rear, and the fairway is 5 feet below the green, how could a 10 foot tree or undergrowth be seen from the fairway ?

It can't, it's physically impossible.

Go to Ran's write up of Pine Valley and look at the picture of the 1st green.[/color]

There is no question that those trees (untouchable by PVGC) would eliminate the skyline effect you seek.
[color]
Not if they were cut to heights below 10 feet.

And, I suspect that the drop off is more than 15 feet.[/color]
 
Now the question becomes whether or not the product is better without those trees, disregarding any skyline effect, but rather just an opening up of some congestion. A positive result; I prefer openness on a golf course. A negative result; clearing those specific trees adds nothing to the hole except for some potentially unwanted visuals outside of the property.

Apparently Ray Charles had better vision then you and TEPaul when it comes to golf courses.

Clearing the nearby trees would create the same effect that one experiences on the approach at # 18 at NGLA.
A green, seemlessly transitioning out of the fairway with no surrounding definition to aid the golfer's eye, and the fear of the unknown and a sharp drop off on three sides.  It would also expose the area to more wind.[/color]  


"JES II,

I think you're forgetting that the 1st green is dramatically elevated from the land behind it, hence cutting trees immediately behind it, and to the right of the second tee would create the skyline green effect, without opening up unsightly views."

I guess i've just disagreed with this entire post almost verbatum Pat, so I'll expand a bit. The first green sits well above its immediate surrounds. This makes it very difficult recovering from green high or beyond. It does not however sit much above the fairway (in the driving area) so you will be challenged to create a real, full skyline effect. With the property line so close you cannot control what goes on outside your boundaries and most clubs prefer a buffer zone of trees and shrubs around their border.

You don't need substantive elevations to create a skyline green effect.
You only need cleared sightlines beyond the target green.
And, if the land falls off behind the green that's usually sufficient to create a skyline effect.

Pine Valley could clear trees immediately behind the 1st green, and top-off trees further back to the property line, creating the skyline effect.

If you stand on the 2nd tee facing the 2nd green, and make a 180 degree turn and look back toward the railroad tracks, you can't see the railroad tracks if trees and undergrowth are blocking your sightline, And, those trees don't have to be tall to block that view.

As to influence beyond your property lines, that depends upon your relationship with the adjacent property owners.[/color]

[Pat_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Had they listened to me years ago, they wouldn't be looking up to the new buildings on the Bayberry site.  

The ultimate truth of the matter is simple.

If there's a will, there's a way.

[JESII]

Pat, you said this:

As to influence beyond your property lines, that depends upon your relationship with the adjacent property owners

I think this suggestion by Tom works, how about you?

"Knock, knock, Uh, excuse me sir, we're from PVGC and we're here to paint your shitty looking house to look like a big bayberry bush. Do you mind? It won't cost you a thing?"

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

You've said some pretty wild things on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com in the past but this turning #1 green into a sklyline green just totally takes the cake for idiocy.

Is the ground behind the 1st green lower than the green? Of course it is but so what? Take all the trees down behind that green which are about forty feet high what's immediately behind and below the green really doesn't have much to do with it. If you want to see an incredible skyline green it would be #2 and those trees back there for about 20-30 yards have no meaning to anything.

Make #1 into a skyline green!? Jeeeesus, I've heard it all now.   I think your GHIN # should have a special warning on it that says:

"BEWARE, this man can be extremely dangerous to the health and well-being of any golf course or golf club."

[Pat_Mucci]

TEPaul,

It's clear that # 2, # 9 and # 17 were intended to be skyline greens.

What I asked is:  What about # 1 ?

It seems that all the ingredients are there.

I'd like to see an early ground level photo of that hole.
My money says it was probably a skyline green in 1918.

[Paul_Turner]

The closest that I've found. About 1916.

[Joe Sponcia]

Patrick/all,

Any idea how many trees (approximately) have been removed now in the 9 years since this was posted?

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

None!

[Kris Shreiner]

Malcolm,

That's not accurate. There have been numerous removals since that early post. PV has been very progressive with their tree management program of late. While some would certainly like to see more go, the club seems to take a prudent approach on most matters and are on point regarding this issue from my view.

Cheers,
Kris 
 

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Kris,

I'm not a member of PVGC but frequent the place often. My comment is specific to the 2nd, 9th and 17th where I have not observed tree removal, certainly not to the extent to restore skyline greens. Perhaps one or two have been culled here or there but not enough to catch my eye.

Also, I reiterate, I am a frequent guest and not tuned into the yearly maintenance of the property. I just don't see that those green's sight lines have been altered in any significant way over the past fifteen years.

I do agree with those who opine that restoration of skyline greens on the holes discussed would be fantastic. Not so sure about Mucci's suggestion on the first.

Best,

Malcolm

[archie_struthers]

 


Trees behind one green ......no!


Behind the 9th.  Absolutely

[Mark_Fine]

Malcolm,
Literally thousands of trees have been removed from Pine Valley since this thread was started.  You seem to fit into the category of most members (like we have a my club).  One year we took out almost 200 trees during the winter.  We did a survey of the membership asking them how many trees they thought we removed from the golf course and the average guess was "6"!!!!  People don't miss trees when they are gone.

I remember doing a walk around of a golf course with a Green Chairman one time and on the fifth hole he asked me my thoughts about four pine trees near the right side of the green.  I said they were awful and if I had my way they would be removed tonight.  He immediately called his super and told him to take the trees down that evening.  Three weeks later I was invited back to the club to give a presentation of my thoughts on the golf course to the Green committee (about a dozen members attended).  At one point in my talk, I asked them what they thought of the trees that were removed on the fifth hole and only one member even realized they were gone!  We literally had to drive out in carts to the hole with all of the committee members to prove that they were gone.  Every one of the committee members had played the course at least once, some many times since they were taken down. 

Take a closer look next time you are at Pine Valley and if you happen to have some photos from a few years back, do some comparisons. 
Mark

[Mark_Fine]

I will add one other comment for now, I once told Mike Burke the superintendent at Cherry Hills CC in Denver to take out every other pine tree on the property and no one will even notice!! He ended up taking a lot out and could have kept going