[Patrick_Mucci]

for the 5th at Pine Valley, the original Biarritz ?

Think about it ?

Think about how Colt rerouted PV by inserting the 5th hole

Look at the configuration, distance and play of the two holes.

I say........... YES

[Peter Pallotta]

Pat - I can't answer your question, but I can note that after a decade or so around these parts you've now learned to post photos and drawings, and so elegantly too. Good for you -- and it just goes to prove that old dogs CAN learn new tricks!

Peter

[JMEvensky]

Pat - I can't answer your question, but I can note that after a decade or so around these parts you've now learned to post photos and drawings, and so elegantly too. Good for you -- and it just goes to prove that old dogs CAN learn new tricks!

Peter

I'll be more impressed when he learns to post photos/drawings in green.

[JESII]

Certainly very similar Pat, from an aerial view. One major difference in the play of the hole would seem to be the elevation difference. Colt could have seen it as an opportunity to create the Biarritz on steroids.

An other possibility is that it was just a natural evolution to a routing that lets several other holes "fit" better. Not having first hand experience routing a golf course I can only guess this happens on most every course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Peter,

I've only learned to copy and paste, not post originals, but, there's still hope that an old dog can learn new tricks.

Jim,

The resemblance, especially with the schematic, is stunning.

If Colt had played the original Biarritz, or even if he just viewed it in person, the terrain at the 5th at PV had to scream out, "Biarritz"
to him.

While the elevation differential may not be what Yale's is, or what George Bahto indicates the original Biarritz was, the opportunity and resemblance is uncanny.

Did Colt write about the creation of # 5 at PV ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan Izatt,

Could you overlay George's schematic on the "Google Earth" aerial of the 5th at Pine Valley.



Thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

In light of all of the new threads on Colt, I thought I'd bump this one.

As I look at the schematic, it's almost identical to what is found at # 5 at PV in terms of the chasm and fall off to the right of the green.


Bryan Izatt,

Could you overlay George's schematic on the "Google Earth" aerial of the 5th at Pine Valley.



Thanks

[Tony_Muldoon]

Pat


1
Please provide me with any evidence that Colt consciously used templates, anywhere?

2
Colt was famous for the strength and variety of his Par 3's

3
I think we have established this hole at Biarritz was essentially NLE in this form by the turn of the century.  Although he studied the subject of GCA in the 1890's, working  as a newly qualified full time solicitor would have left little time for travel.  It was from about 1906 that Sunningdale allowed him more time to travel, but 1909 before work to him to  the Cote D'Azure.

4
Sometimes a coincidence is just a a coincidence and without a single piece of evidence to support it, perhaps it's time you let this one drop.


Merry Christmas.

[Tom_Doak]

Tony:

Mr. Colt did build various versions of the Redan on different courses, such as the 4th at Swinley Forest.  Not an exact copy, but certainly "inspired by".


Patrick:

Mr. Colt should well have seen the original Biarritz hole, since he redesigned the course at Biarritz -- although I think that hole was already out of play before his work.

However, having seen his original notebook sketch for the 5th at Pine Valley, I don't recall that the drawing showed a green anything like the Biarritz.  And if you think he needed such "inspiration" just to design a long par-3 over the water, you're grasping at straws.

[Bryan Izatt]

We're pretty sure that the Chasm hole NLE in the early 1900's with houses having been built where the tee and green were, so if Colt saw the site it was probably in someone's back yard.

[Sven Nilsen]

Wouldn't Colt's work at Biarritz have been well after his work at Pine Valley?

Doesn't rule out that he saw Biarritz before he was hired to renovate the course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tony:

Mr. Colt did build various versions of the Redan on different courses, such as the 4th at Swinley Forest.  
Not an exact copy, but certainly "inspired by".


Patrick:

Mr. Colt should well have seen the original Biarritz hole, since he redesigned the course at Biarritz -- although I think that hole was already out of play before his work.

That's interesting and would seem to reinforce the thought that Colt was familiar with the holes at the golf course at Biarritz, existing and NLE.

However, having seen his original notebook sketch for the 5th at Pine Valley, I don't recall that the drawing showed a green anything like the Biarritz.  

Tom,

I think we've established that the green on the "chasm" hole wasn't anything like a "biarritz" style green.
Therefore, it should come as no surprise that the green on # 5 at PV doesn't resemble a "biarritz" style green.
It was CBM who revised/refined the "Biarritz" style of green, and inserted it on par 3's, not Colt.


And if you think he needed such "inspiration" just to design a long par-3 over the water, you're grasping at straws.[color=green}

It wasn't so much that he designed it, but that he rerouted the course and inserted that hole.
To posture that Colt was so obtuse as to not remember the "chasm" hole and that he was so obtuse as to not see the resemblance in the topography at PV and the possibility of crafting a similar hole, seems like more of a stretch.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tony:

Mr. Colt did build various versions of the Redan on different courses, such as the 4th at Swinley Forest.  Not an exact copy, but certainly "inspired by".

Interesting.   What others are you thinking of??


Colt hadn't seen NGLA when he built Swinley, but he had likely met MacDonald and was in correspondence with him re a green keeper for Piping Rock. Thus I think it's very likely he understood the idea of template holes.

However the 4th at Swinley is built on a natural upslope and features a false front and thus it follows the land.  I've not seen many holes that I would acknowledge as Redanesque so it's hard for me to place this one as a 'copy'.  As  I was alluding to earlier, I can't recall him ever writing that he had 'consciously ' employed a template.

[Tom_Doak]

Tony:

Mr. Colt did build various versions of the Redan on different courses, such as the 4th at Swinley Forest.  Not an exact copy, but certainly "inspired by".

Interesting.   What others are you thinking of??


Colt hadn't seen NGLA when he built Swinley, but he had likely met MacDonald and was in correspondence with him re a green keeper for Piping Rock. Thus I think it's very likely he understood the idea of template holes.

However the 4th at Swinley is built on a natural upslope and features a false front and thus it follows the land.  I've not seen many holes that I would acknowledge as Redanesque so it's hard for me to place this one as a 'copy'.  As  I was alluding to earlier, I can't recall him ever writing that he had 'consciously ' employed a template.

Tony:

Mr. Colt certainly would not have had to see NGLA to build a Redan.  I would assume that he had played the original.

It's possible that the Swinley Forest hole is not inspired by the Redan, but there are certainly similarities.  The 3rd at St. George's Hill is another I would have thought inspired by the same model.  I'll have to think a bit, but I believe those are not the only two.

[Patrick_Mucci]

# 13 at Pine Valley is also reminiscent of a Redan, not unike # 1 at The Creek.

[Sean_A]

Tom

I definitely see some Redan in Swinley's 4th.  Not so much in SGH's 3rd.  Any thoughts about Broadstone's 11th?  Of course the big separator is Colt's holes are meant to be aerial shots;  this is probably the one hallmark of many well known Colt par 3s.  

It shouldn't be suprising that we don't see obvious templates coming from Colt.  If I had to hazard a guess, I would say the lack of templates was a conscious decision on Colt's part.  

Ciao

[Niall C]

I think there is a very good chance that Colt would have played golf at Biarritz in the early days as it was a very fashionable golf resort of the time. As to whether Colt used templates, I've no idea, but his business partner certainly did so that suggests to me that philisophically he didn't have an objection to doing that.

Niall  

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think there is a very good chance that Colt would have played golf at Biarritz in the early days as it was a very fashionable golf resort of the time. As to whether Colt used templates, I've no idea, but his business partner certainly did so that suggests to me that philisophically he didn't have an objection to doing that.

Niall,

The issue/question is NOT whether Colt used templates, it's if the "chasm" hole at Biarritz served as his inspiration for the 5th at Pine Valley.

How would you and others describe the 17th at Pacific Dunes ?
An original concept or a hybrid Redan ?

Niall  

[Niall C]

Patrick

In fairness I wasn't pretending to answer the question directly but more provide comment on whether taking "inspiration" was the type of thing Colt did. With regards Pcific Dunes, never been there so can't comment.

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick

In fairness I wasn't pretending to answer the question directly but more provide comment on whether taking "inspiration" was the type of thing Colt did. .


Niall,

I don't know that the source of "inspiration" implies a deliberate or a contrived method of thinking.

I do think that a well traveled golfer/architect would be inspired, just by the terrain at # 5 at Pine Valley, and, if they had visited and studied the golf course at Biarritz, existing and NLE, that a "Deja Vu" moment would have occurred to them, upon viewing the topography.
A "voila" moment triggered by a flashback to a similar configuration of the land

I don't think it's unoriginal to take advantage of a unique site by introducing a hole that you've come across in your travels.

The Redan at NGLA is a good example.

The hole was just sitting there, on the perfect terrain, waiting to be discovered.

With regards Pcific Dunes, never been there so can't comment.

Understood.

All I can say is that when I walked up from the 16th green, the spectacle that greeted me was most impressive and reminiscent of a Redan on steroids

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