Golf Architecture Related Jobs

[jeffwarne]

jeffwarne,

There are hundreds or thousands of kids that would give anything for a free ride to college via the Evans program. Why? Because they want to study business, medicine, law, etc. and they wouldn't be able to afford to do so at the same level of university without the Scholarship. The job opportunities that Jordan has been offered are because he is going to have a business degree paid for by the WGA. Throwing that aside for a few years while heading to Costa Rica to pick up rocks for $9/hour is something he doesn't need a business degree for, heck, I'm not sure he even needs a GED. If Jordan was serious about getting into architecture, he should of studied landscape architecture, turf, etc. You guys may think that he can always fall back on his degree but if there is anything more useless than an undergraduate business degree its a undergraduate business degree that's three years old with no work experience behind it.

And Gil Hanse is a terrible comparison. Gil went to Cornell and received a scholarship to study golf course architecture in the UK and interned at an architecture firm. Sure he had an offer to work for a congressman, but he already had deep roots in the golf architecture world. He had a choice but it was a certainly less risky one that Jordan has.

Of course the majority of the posters here are going to tell him "go for it" "reach for your dreams" blah blah blah...this is a golf course architecture forum with a bunch of GCA nerds posting. He's preaching to the choir. I may come off as a jerk in these posts, but this is just my advice.

PCraig,
i don't think your posts make you look like a jerk.
You're giving him sound advice.

Perhaps he should've studied landscape architecture, but that lack of decision is in the past.
Who knew what they wanted to do at 18?
I'd bet Jordan knew then what he wanted to do, but bowed to pressure to get a business degree.
My guess is that business degree will serve him well, no matter what he does, even if "picking up rocks" doesn't lead to something directly in that specific field.
I'd like to think Jordan (and others ) learn a bit more at college than just skills in a narrow field, and despite the fact he's picking up rocks he will be able to network amongst people in the industry (and other industries) he might never meet in an entry level business degree job.

I graduated with a degree in accounting (which I chose as a degree because I had absolutely NO idea what I wanted to do besides play golf but wanted a fallback) The fly in the ointment was that I had NO shot at playing for a living as I was a horrific ballstriker, despite being able to compete at a reasonably high level.
I worked my tail off 2 years as a barback at night at the cheesiest 80's disco on earth (there were a few perks ) so I could play, practice, and travel to see great teachers-with the only goal being to improve my own game (I worked in the bar 7 days on-7 off- 12 hour shifts from 5 pm to 5 am)

I can't tell you how many smart people told me I was wasting my life, my talents, and my degree-and those were the ones with courage to say it to my face.
But then a PING salesman (Georgia guys probably knew him) spotted me working my tail off in that cheesy bar and remarked he'd never seen anyone work so hard in his life-we struck up a short conversation (I was too busy to talk more than a few seconds so I called him the next day) and the next thing you know I was waiting tables at The Cloister and taking lessons from Jimmy Hodges and Davis Love II.
That said, even at 26 and married, I was still slinging bags at Long Cove for $6 an hour-so I'd say Jordan's got time .

Along the way a lot of very good things happened and I got a lot of great help from a lot of good people-but I worked my tail off, all the while educating myself in the golf business both by design and by accident.

But I never ONCE regretted getting that accounting degree, and it has helped me immeasureably throughout my career, as well in personal financial decisions.
and more than a few of those naysayers have managed to find a way to enjoy visiting me in Hilton Head, Miami, Westchester, Aiken,  and The Hamptons
 
 I know Golf course architecture is a narrow, currently shrinking field.
Golf pro jobs sucked pretty darn badly in the early-mid 80's as well.
Who knows what direction any part of any industry will take.

and by the way, if you haven't noticed...
Jordan IS a GCA nerd

[Mike_Young]

Jeff,
Billy Weir and Ray Cutright???

[Tom_Doak]

And Jordan also came to see Tumble Creek when he wrote me a letter when he was 15 or 16, so I can confirm that it's probably been on his mind for a while.

PCraig:  You should probably get your facts straight about Gil Hanse, while you're at it.  He went to Cornell for grad school for l.a., not undergrad, after he'd had a change of heart about the political field [although he is still a politician in many respects].  Then he interned for me.  And then he got the scholarship to go overseas -- the same exact one I'd won five years earlier -- with a letter of recommendation from me.  So, I think it's fair to say that Gil gave up a promising career to pursue his dream.

He's hardly the only one.  Mike DeVries had a degree from Lake Forest, but didn't want to go into business ... so he worked for me for a while, then went back and got a graduate degree in l.a., and went out on his own.  Brian Schneider, one of my current lead associates, started working on the maintenance crews at fine clubs right after he'd finished his degree in biochemistry (or was it microbiology, I always mix it up).  There are lots of guys who take years to figure out what they really want to do with their lives.  I'm just lucky that it only took me a semester and a half at M.I.T. to understand what I really wanted.

[Jason Thurman]

What's the best way for a GCA nerd to get his kicks?

A) Doing maintenance work for $9 an hour.

B) Having a well-paying job and opportunity for advancement.

Personally, I'd go with B. I don't know that working on a maintenance crew offers much more free time, and I think the cold reality is that it's not really a spiritual connection with the game. I also doubt that it's the fastest way to learn the skills needed to really work in the architecture business.

Jordan, if you really want to get into architecture, go all out for it. Build a resume around the skills you have and try to get an internship doing what you actually want to do. It sounds like you have cold feet about a business career. I can totally empathize with that. Being in that position puts you at risk for choosing easy routes down no-outlet paths while you wait for a long-term vision to come though. Those paths don't get you any closer to your goals in architecture or your goals of affording meals that don't come out of a freezer and a microwave.

Spend your time now developing the long-term vision, and get a job in the meantime that you can survive and have some fun on. If you don't want to go into business, do something fun like tending bar where you have flexible hours to play golf, plenty of money to play golf, and meet lots of people, some of whom may be able to lead you to opportunities (I typed this before I read Jeff's most recent post). I'm just not sure that joining a maintenance crew will really satisfy your architecture fix. Don't be afraid to chase your dream, but realize that fear takes many forms. One form is taking a job in a business you have no real interest in because it's what you feel like you're "supposed to do," but another form is taking a crappy job that's only a little bit related to the industry you're actually interested in.

Let me also be clear about something. You should think hard about what your long-term vision will look like, but be opportunistic when you get a real opportunity that sounds like something that checks every box for you, even if it's not exactly what you had pictured. Those opportunities WILL come eventually, but flymowing the banks of a creek on a 40 degree rainy day isn't exactly the opportunity you should be jumping for.

[Jud_T]

That's pretty funny Tom.  My dad flunked out of M.I.T. before he got serious. (What is it with that place?).  Hell, I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do when I grow up.  One thing I can say is if it's truly your passion, you'll probably be a hell of a lot happier, and have a better chance of success, as a broke GCA than as mediocre accountant.  Take it from someone who's seen both sides of the tracks, money and security aren't all they're cracked up to be if you don't enjoy what you do.  You'll be secure when you're in a box 6 feet under.  Do what you love and it's not work, it's getting paid for your hobby.  The time to go for it is now, not when you've got a wife, two kids, a mortgage, two car payments and a college savings plan.  You can always go back and get your MBA in your late 20's like the rest of us a$$es if it doesn't pan out..

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,
Billy Weir and Ray Cutright???

Billy Weir-evidently he was a regular at the place when visiting Augusta-great guy.
Ray Cutright had a club shop In Sea Island when I was there.

Jimmy Hodges was a great guy who did a lot for me-had young kids.
Tragic what happened to him and Mr. Love soon after I left.

[PCCraig]

PCraig:  You should probably get your facts straight about Gil Hanse, while you're at it.  He went to Cornell for grad school for l.a., not undergrad, after he'd had a change of heart about the political field [although he is still a politician in many respects].  Then he interned for me.  And then he got the scholarship to go overseas -- the same exact one I'd won five years earlier -- with a letter of recommendation from me.  So, I think it's fair to say that Gil gave up a promising career to pursue his dream.

My bad. Sorry for the poorly informed post above re: Gil Hanse.

[John Mayhugh]

I don't honestly think this is about architecture - its a life decision that could be about anything.  IMO, I think Ally is right.  Now is a great time to roll the dice, but be aware that your "real life" job prospects may suffer for rolling the dice.  That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but its worth strong consideration.  

I agree completely.  It's been hard for a whole lot of us knowing what we want to do (some still wonder!), and an education isn't exactly going to waste if one changes directions.  

Seems like the career change worked out pretty well for Frank Pont, too.  

[Aidan Bradley]

I graduated from University with a degree in Law. Not ready to jump in to the profession right away I took two years off where I taught tennis and lawn bowling at two resorts on the East and West Coasts. Then I went back to College for three years and graduated with a degree in Photography. Now I photograph grass for a living. The road traveled is not always straight. Enjoy the ride.

[Garland Bayley]

My advice in a similar recent thread was to do what your good at as doing good work brings joy.

Jordan, you have to decide whether you would be better at business or GCA.

PM me if you want to know what I think.

[Jordan Wall]

Pat,

Really appreciate your words.

I'm fully aware that I'll likely have a more prominent and successful career in business than in GCA in the eyes of most people.  But, prominence and success are very subjective.

I love golf more than anything.  Through the Evans I have been granted a full scholarship to one of the great schools in the world, where I have succeeded.  I could easily take a job with a company, work my way up and within five or six years get to $100k+ per year.  But, to me, that is not how I define success.  If I go into business and do that, chances are I'll be going into a job I really don't like and on top of that would be doing it for the wrong reasons.  I would rather make a lot less money doing something I love and have a passion for than making a lot more doing something I really don't care about.

Truth is, golf has done so much for me and more than anything it is my passion.  To be able to give back to the game while also working in an industry that I have a true passion for would mean more than any amount of money I could earn in business.  Yes, I want a family one day and I have an amazing, beautiful (smoking hot actually) girlfriend that I hope to spend the rest of my life with.  She comes from a very, very well off family and has all the reason to want to be with someone who will make the kind of money to support that lifestyle later on.  However, even she supports my decision to do whatever possible to enter the golf industry because she knows I love it and she knows as well that money isn't what creates happiness.

My story is personal and very different from other people.  I wouldn't be where I am today without golf, and through the Evans I have met many other kids who would not have any hope of college without golf.  The joy in seeing their faces when they get the scholarship and succeed in school is FAR GREATER than anything I could get in business, even through philanthropy.  The game of golf has touched so many people, and with me being one of those I can say without hesitation that there would be no greater joy, personally, than giving back to the game and seeing golf positively effect so many others like it has myself.  The fact I have a wonderful girlfriend that supports this makes the decision that much easier for me.

Currently I am working with some people in the WGA that have graciously connected me with opportunities at both the WGA and the USGA, which I am both blessed and thankful for.  Truth is, if I don't get into the golf industry now, the chances I do later on down the road are slim to none.


I'll share a quick story: this summer I had the fortune of working with the Father of a good friend in my fraternity who does venture capital, and I had the chance to try and start my own golf company through venture capital funding.  While the company never came to life as the target market was simply too narrow, meaning the expected return on investment for venture capitalists wasn't equal to what they would expect when funding a company, it was still an amazing experience.  

Anyways, though it didn't pan out, one of the things my business partner and I had done to create data for the project was create a quick and easy five question survey for golf professionals to complete.  We not only called every golf course in Washington but every golf course in the GD top-100 public as well as some very exclusive clubs, asking personally to speak with the golf professionals to let them know what we were doing and to see if they would be willing to provide their email and complete the survey.  

One of the courses I called was Erin Hills.  When I spoke with the pro, I would tell him I was an Evans Scholar at the UW Business School to gain credibility so they would be willing to spend a minute on the phone.  I would then briefly explain the purpose of the call and ask if they would be willing to complete the survey.  We didn't get a single negative response, but the golf professional at Erin Hills provided an especially remarkable phone call.

After he obliged to complete the survey, he asked me about the Evans Scholarship and informed me that he was once actually on the board of directors for Illinois, where the WGA headquarters are based, and was a voting member to select Evans Scholars.  He asked if he could share a story about two twins that got the Evans Scholarship, and of course I was all ears.  While I won't go into the details, it was a truly inspiring story of how he was able to help two very deserving kids get the scholarship when they otherwise would have had zero clue to do with their lives.  I then shared with him my story of how I got the scholarship, which almost brought him to tears, and we connected and still stay in touch quite frequently.  Next time I'm in the area I'll be going to Erin Hills to play the course, hopefully with him, and sit down to meet him personally and share some more stories.

And that happened through a phone call to someone I didn't even know.


The point is, golf has such a positive affect on people that is so much more than anything I would be able to get or have through a career in business.  That is why I want to spend my life in the golf industry.  While you probably don't have my perspective on this as an Evans Scholar, I can say that in my mind there is no greater joy than seeing such a wonderful game have such a tremendous impact on people.

So, yes, I could go into business, but I have the chance right now to do something I have a true passion for and that no matter how much I'm paid, will thoroughly enjoy for the rest of my life.  

That, my friend, is why I am choosing to go with golf instead of business.

All my best.

[Jordan Wall]

Also, Tom Doak, thank you again for that wonderful day at Tumble Creek.

I'm still sorry I was so young and ignorant back in the day and stupidly posted a thread comparing Aldarra and Tumble Creek, I was young and had a lot to learn.

But, I've shared that experience with many people in the WGA, including my senior project which you also helped me with, and I can say that I am not the only one who admired what you did for me.

I hope one day we can connect again.

[archie_struthers]

 


Jordan , I'm thinking a job or internship with the USGA. might be pretty fun and also pay fairly well .  Could see you replacing mike davis some day , wouldn't be all bad .

[Tim Lewis]

The pro at Erin Hills was the pro at Ozaukee CC, my home club, for a long time before he went to Erin Hills. Although I never  got to know him to well he gave me my first lesson and took a very active role in the junior golf program when I participated in it. He still plays a very active role at Ozaukee, and I even see him on the range once and a while. I can understand why people like him would inspire you to want to give back to the game.

[Jordan Wall]

The pro at Erin Hills was the pro at Ozaukee CC, my home club, for a long time before he went to Erin Hills. Although I never  got to know him to well he gave me my first lesson and took a very active role in the junior golf program when I participated in it. He still plays a very active role at Ozaukee, and I even see him on the range once and a while. I can understand why people like him would inspire you to want to give back to the game.

Could not agree more.  People like that are what make golf the amazing game it is.  My guess is that the vast majority of people in the industry do what they do because they love the game, not for money or glory.  People like him are a testament to why golf is so great because they truly care to help others and see them grow through golf.  

How many other industries have people devoted to helping others as a main reason for doing what they do?

Not many.

[JESII]

Jordan,

Nice post, thank you.

I can tell you, the ability to give back to the game is exponentially greater from the business world than on the golf course. If you want to work on golf courses, that's great. If you're making this decision as a way to give back to the game you might want to reconsider the road map.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I'll share a quick story: this summer I had the fortune of working with the Father of a good friend in my fraternity who does venture capital, and I had the chance to try and start my own golf company through venture capital funding.  While the company never came to life as the target market was simply too narrow, meaning the expected return on investment for venture capitalists wasn't equal to what they would expect when funding a company, it was still an amazing experience.  
...

Got any more ideas? This is what I see you being really good at.

[PCCraig]

Jordan,

There is a big difference between careers in Golf Administration and Golf Architecture. If that's what you want to do go for it, but do it not counting on some chick's family money....you're setting yourself up for disaster on that point.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Jordan,
Who says you can't use your business degree in a golf environment? I don't get the business or golf question. There are plenty of opportunities for an entrepreneur in golf.    

[jeffwarne]

Jordan,
Who says you can't use your business degree in a golf environment? I don't get the business or golf question. There are plenty of opportunities for an entrepreneur in golf.    

Absolutely,
I'd say Mike Young was be a pretty good model for Jordan.
Gotta adapt to the enviroment

[Mike_Young]

JORDAN,
READ THIS:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-altucher/reinventing-yourself_b_4298817.html?comm_crv

[Josh Bills]

Jordan,

I know I am a little late to this thread, but wanted to give you my thoughts.  I am an attorney who has always enjoyed golf, and all it involves.  My brother is a teaching pro here in Ohio.  My other brother is a financial guy in NY and a member at Bayonne, golf is something my whole family enjoys.  There are many days when I wish I would have had the direction and focus you have now on pursuing what you enjoy.  I have been fortunate to be able to provide assistance to various golf related industries (courses, personnel and suppliers) both through representation and education.  And play a fair amount of golf related to work.  But like many outsiders to the golf architecture world, often think back to what I would have done differently, as I recall drawing golf holes on my notebooks back in grade school and well on through college and even the Lido competition now.  You have been provided a lot of sound advice and I would only echo those who say don't be afraid to pursue what you love before your responsibilities increase (Bill McBride - "do it now while you don't have a family to support.")  Looking back (now that I am 40) I probably don't (and did not) have the ability to be a GCA, despite my belief otherwise, and am fortunate to enjoy my job when I get to talk to a jury and make a closing argument.  I now have twin daughters and occasionally still look at programs on turf and agronomy and wonder... then I hear my 2 year olds wanting to read, draw, etc. and realize those that path just isn't going to happen now or anytime in the near future.  I would say pursue those goals while you are young.  Success may not find you in the GCA field, but you won't know if you don't try.  I'm sure you have this resource, but in case you are interested looks like there are summer intern opportunities at some great places right now- http://www.turfnet.com/jobs/.  

Best of luck.  Josh

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

There is a big difference between careers in Golf Administration and Golf Architecture. If that's what you want to do go for it, but do it not counting on some chick's family money....you're setting yourself up for disaster on that point.

I'm looking into both, but this is a golf architecture site which is why I posed a GCA specific question here.

Also, thinking I'm relying on "some chick's family money" is missing the point entirely.  Not only is that not the case, but I would venture to say that going into a job I don't want to do, solely for the reason of making money, is setting myself up for disaster.  Not only would I dismiss the chance to pursue my passion at a young age when it is still a viable option, but placing my focus on monetary gains is flat out selfish and not something I look to do.

In a career with golf, I may not live an extravagant lifestyle, but I will be doing something I love and doing the things that matter most to me, which is giving back to the game and helping it grow and flourish.  No doubt I'll need to make enough to support myself and a family, but I have no doubt that through hard work, that won't be a problem.


Josh,

Thanks for the words.  I'm excited to pursue golf while I'm young and have the resources around me to make it happen.  If it doesn't work out, so be it, but at least I won't have to go through life knowing I didn't at least give a career with my passion the chance it deserved.  And honestly, with the passion and love I have for the game I have no reason to think or believe it won't work out.


Don,

Completely agree with you.  I have no doubt the skills I learned in business school will help and assist me as I pursue a career in golf.  Be it in a salary position, or something entrepreneurial I pursue with golf, whatever it may be I'm certain I'll use the skills I learned to succeed in the golf industry just as they would help me succeed in any other business career.


Garland,

As a matter of fact I do.  Thanks for the kind words  


Mike,

Thanks for the link, really good read.

[JR Potts]

Jordan:

Congrats and wish you the best of luck in whatever you do!  What the hell, follow your dreams while you're young.  Just be careful, if you fail at your dream, you're going to have to settle for someone else's dream - and then you're going to have to compete your ass off.  That said, hopefully you never have that worry.  

I'm not posting this because I think it applies to you in the least, I post it because I think it's funny.  

http://www.waitbutwhy.com/2013/09/why-generation-y-yuppies-are-unhappy.html?m=1

Best of luck in whatever you do.   Remember, you're special.