News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #75 on: November 25, 2015, 10:00:37 AM »
We seem to have different mindsets......but I am reasonably sure most of them hoped to make money!  And, if you hire people and develop some kind of organization rather than being a lone wolf, then money matters do enter in.

I doubt things have changed at all in the field of human nature, so that is the basis of my statement.  However, neither you or I were there, and as noted, if there were 50 golf course architects back then, they probably had 50 different variations of prime motives...

Cheers.


Jeff:


We have closer mindsets than you understand.  What you're not getting is the distinction between trying to create a profession, and having  a line of work develop due to a sudden demand for particular skills.


As I noted above, there's a lot more in this conversation that we could explore, including analogies to the housing market and both of their relationships to the ebbs and swells of development.  The profession of golf course architect in the US started as the offshoot of a massive wave of course construction in the 1890's, followed by continued growth all the way up to the '30's.  Times were good and almost everyone was working.


But unlike many other professions, GCA isn't tied to a necessity.  We're always going to need farmers, plumbers and doctors.  We don't always need golf course architects.  It is my belief that it is when this became evident to guys like Tull and RTJ that we saw the beginnings of the desire to organize as a profession and in turn to have others see and treat architects as such.


This is how trade standards start, when you start to realize the hog only has so much fat, and you want that fat being divyed out to the right people for the right price.


Sven
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 10:05:37 AM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #76 on: November 25, 2015, 10:33:43 AM »
Most of this discussion is in a US context, however as far as the UK is concerned there were professional golf course architects from the 19th century starting probably with Old Tom or possibly even Allan Robertson (Carnoustie), even though their design fees probably only made up a small proportion of their income.

Others in that mould include Willie Fernie who probably was the main man for course design in the west of Scotland, Archie Simpson in the north and Willie Park through in the east, all from the late 1800’s onwards. Considering that all these gentlemen travelled considerable distances in the days when travel wasn’t nearly as quick, cheap and easy as it is now you have to assume they were well compensated for their efforts.

Going into the early 1900’s you had notably James Braid who was quite prolific while holding down a “day job” as well as numerous other golf professionals who turned their hand to course design. To that list you could probably add sundry greenkeeper professionals such as Peter Lees, John Tulloch, John Gaunt and Hawtree.

As to who the first non-golf professional architect who got paid such that they were earning a decent income then I think Sean is right in that it probably was Harry Colt who you have to think must have been getting some decent commissions to leave a secure job (1902 from memory). Colt and probably Harold Hilton and Fowler after him were maybe the first to challenge professional golfers in terms of competing for design commissions, a fact that didn’t go unchallenged.
 
Harry Fulford, a noted professional who also wrote for one of the golf mags, was the main protagonist who wrote decrying Colt and others (Colt was the only one that Fulford identified by name) for taking money from professionals by taking on design commissions. His argument was that in doing so guys like Colt and others were infringing on their amateur status. The stooshie that this caused lead to much debate as to what constituted an amateur golfer and therefore what impinged amateur status. It was eventually decided that course design wasn’t an infringement (Colt, Fowler etc) and neither was being paid to write about golf (Hilton, Low etc). Given that the decision rested with the R&A and most if not all of these guys were members of the R&A including the Rules of Golf Committee, then you’ve got to think the result probably wasn’t in doubt !

From memory that was about the last part of the first decade. At or about the same time I think there was a similar discussion going on in the US which I think adopted a stricter line.

That Colt was well established before WW1, there is no doubt and indeed he even did designs abroad in US and I think Canada. MacKenzie also was well established and while I can’t recall off hand when he eventually stepped back from his doctors practice I’m fairly sure it was pre WW1. Copies of the Golfers Handbook pre WW1 and after show that they were advertising their services as were others such as Simpson, Fowler, Abercrombie etc a couple of years after WW1.

With regards to the discussion of GCA’s and associated construction companies, a lot of these guys had their preferred contractor and MacKenzie’s favoured approach seemed to be “here’s the design, do with it what you will but if you want my advice the best results are obtained by the architect working with and supervising the contractor, and by the way can I introduce my brother who has a golf course construction company…….” .

As for professional associations, Simpson set up a golf course architects association in the 1920’s which was supposed to have a global reach and he roped in MacKenzie and others but I think it was short lived as probably by that time many of the other guys in the profession seemed to think he was bonkers. Anyway I don’t have the stated aims to hand but I think it can be assumed it was a fairly self-serving organisation.
 
Niall

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #77 on: November 25, 2015, 10:41:18 AM »
Mark and Niall,

Thanks for those perspectives.

Sven, maybe we can just agree that it is much too complicated a subject to sum up in a few sound bits, paragraphs, posts or threads and leave it at that.  I am not really trying to argue with anyone, just provide some modern situations.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #78 on: November 25, 2015, 10:56:13 AM »
Jeff,

After reading the last few post it makes me realize even more that for years most people in the industry could not make a living from it.  The professionals were doing it as needed and felt Colt was taking from them.  Many doing it today can't make a living from it and it will continue.  Therefore to survive in the industry and make a good income one must have other income, it could be inheritance, a working wife, other golf businesses or whatever but the fact is there are too many guys who just draw plans.   I have always assumed most professional businesses should provide full time employment and a very good living not just a decent one.   If a guy can get to where he can place those plans on the ground he will have a much better living in most cases. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #79 on: November 25, 2015, 12:00:08 PM »
Mike,

I was thinking of posting again about the old guys and related businesses.  Forming an association wasn't the only thing they did to try and protect their incomes (or simply generate them).

You are also right that the numbers favor construction.  In a $3M project, and makes 10% profit, that is $300K for his year plus of effort.  If the architect gets 7% and makes 10% profit, that equates to $210K in fees and $21K in increased net wealth for that same year of effort, sometimes, many years, with permitting.

During the boom, I recall Toro telling me that there were 300 different architects they sent their catalog to.  Even in the boom days, there was a max of 600 new courses built a year, or two per architect on average.  But, 8-10 guys got 80% of the market, meaning there were 120 courses for 290 architects.  Even if there were another 600 remodels it was a very narrow split in the best of times.  And, the "best of times" occurs about every 30 years or so - 1920's, 1950's, 1980-90's.  This should be a big upswing, but I think we will skip it.

There will always be room for planning, as in long term master plans, etc.  I am working with a city now that is visioning itself in ten years and how golf fits.  Contractors aren't set up for that.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #80 on: November 25, 2015, 04:19:31 PM »

Actually, I found out it is true, being less busy leads to better work.  Back in the day, some projects were left with second in command as it were, and sometimes, as I am sure TD or others who have or had big staffs would attest, a talented architect does a lot better when they take ownership of the project.  In those cases, the head guy has some decisions to make - Come in with a flourish and make some changes to prove the client is getting a design by the top dog, or minimizing changes of already completed work to buff up his associate.

I have a few projects out there that were field supervised by some of my more talented associates over the years that probably were better than if I was in charge.  Those guys (John Colligan, who Trey Kemp works for) and Jeff Blume are now doing quite well on their own.  However, most of my "Best New" lists came when I had a big enough contract to put those guys out a lot, but also stopped by a lot myself. 



For Tara Iti, I had one lead associate there for 2+ years running things and shaping and re-shaping holes; two other associates who would take turns coming with me so when I was there for a week we could work on twice as many holes; and four guys with a ton of construction experience doing the finish work and getting things ready for seed ... plus the superintendent, who'd worked on one of our projects before and we recommended specifically for the job.  So, that's eight other guys involved in the design of the course, all of them free to help make it better.


And honestly, never once did I make a decision based on pumping someone up or showing who was in charge.  That would be silly, since my interpersonal skills are not as well honed as my design skills are.  ;)  Luckily, those who work for me can handle my edits, because they know it's not personal.  Or, they can until they can't, and then they need to be their own boss.


Jamie Pyper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #81 on: November 25, 2015, 08:53:51 PM »
Tom D.
Your last post seems to indicate the level of respect and confidence you have achieved perfecting your "craft" whereby highly qualified associates team up together, honouring your design philosophy, to achieve the best end result.


Many of the best courses ever created had major input from lesser known names happy to have contributed on their own labours of love.(e.g.:  Robert Hunter at CP and Pasatiempo or George Combe at RCD, to mention a few)  Even Edison had his Tesla. 


I'm sure your associates and other experts who enjoy working with you, like Don Mahaffey, get immeasurable satisfaction seeing the results of their combined creativity that are recognized among the best in the business. It takes a village - and the best design won't amount to much without a unified team of experts to take it from vellum to seed.


As your fellow Michiganian ( Michigander)? Henry Ford once stated " I'm a smart man because I surround myself with smart people."




Happy Thanksgiving to all our American Neighbours