[Kevin_Reilly]

3rd hole at Blue Canyon (canyon course) on Phuket has a huge tree in the middle left of the fairway fronting the green (440yd par 4).   i'd throw a picture up, but i can't find one - nor figure it out

From the course's website:

The fairway is narrow, tree lined and uphill all the way on this longest Par 4 on the course. The giant Calabash tree dictates play. Accurate drivers will select a right or left route up the fairway as second shots from the centre will require shaping round the tree. The length of the green makes checking the pin position essential in club selection.

[Joe Sponcia]

Mr. Warne,

I don't know what your handicap is...but if I normally draw the ball ten yards off the tee, my line is not down the middle, it is 10-15 yards right of center with the hope that my normal ball flight will take over?  I have had this discussion with older, higher handicap members for years (who incidentally I am for) when they balk at natural areas.  "Son, I would rather find my ball and hit off that wispy turf you talk about then not find my ball at all".  Me:  "So what if your ball is lying on a root".  Member:  "I would move it so I don't bust up my wrist".  

My choice would be (as Holston has done) 50 yards fairways with a rough buffer vs. 30 yard fairways, tree lined...but I don't think the recoveries you speak of are that fun?  I have rarely hit a 200 yard shot from underneath a tree, after barely missing a root, and made the green.  More times than not, the average player will punch out.  

Heroic shots to me are the one's played on a nice risk/reward par 5 that dares you to bite a bit more off on the tee shot, and then hit a nicely carved three wood a certain shot shape.  Raynor and Dye layouts (the few that I have had the pleasure to play) have plentiful hero shots, either because you play over something (dye) or the green complex is such that you have to play a certain shot shape due to the sharp undulation of the green.  All of Camargo and Lookout Mountains par three's not named 'short' are one shot, hero shots in my mind.  

By the way...I almost used your quote in my original post:  

“Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost. - Jeff Warne

One of my favorite quotes I have read on the board!

[Bill_McBride]

Joe, Jeff Warne is the golf professional at The Bridge Golf Club on Long Island and is a well known top level instructor.  I wish I could afford him!

He's also a Georgia boy which makes him very popular with those Long Island swells.  "Where you from, boy?"

[Kevin Lynch]

I have had this discussion with older, higher handicap members for years (who incidentally I am for) when they balk at natural areas.  "Son, I would rather find my ball and hit off that wispy turf you talk about then not find my ball at all".  Me:  "So what if your ball is lying on a root".  Member:  "I would move it so I don't bust up my wrist".  

My choice would be (as Holston has done) 50 yards fairways with a rough buffer vs. 30 yard fairways, tree lined...but I don't think the recoveries you speak of are that fun?  I have rarely hit a 200 yard shot from underneath a tree, after barely missing a root, and made the green.  More times than not, the average player will punch out.  

RE: Your older members remarks, I guess my question would be "why did the trees 50 yards off center need to be replaced with lost-ball rough?"

I totally understand why you don't want 25 yard, tree-lined fairways.  That's a maintenance nightmare and boring.  You wanted those trees removed to open up the playing corridors.  From your comments, you seem to think the areas 50 yards off center really shouldn't come into play.

But why not leave sporadically located trees in those "out of play" areas, rather than assessing 2 stroke penalties?  I understand that you want some consequence of being so far off line, but why is "zero chance of recovery" (+ distance penalty) more fun than an "unlikely chance of recovery" from a found ball in the trees?  Again, you don't need lines of trees, but a few trees to force the player to significantly shape a recovery, punch out, or sometimes accept the bad break of a root (still beats the hell out of losing a ball and reloading).

As for not thinking recovery shots from trees are fun - I'm worried you've been too good a player for too long and forgotten the bravado of your early days (as a 1 handicap, you probably play smart and take your medicine).  I'm not burdened by such smart thinking.    I can recall every recovery shot I've made from the trees that have worked, whether it be 1, 2 or 20 years ago.  Those memories last infinitely longer than the quickly-forgotten "hitting 3" scenario.

[jeffwarne]

Joe,
I can see you're a man of taste.
You can steal my quotes anytime.

That quote works well when a green is tilted and maintained firmly to reward a drive in an optimal position, and subtly punish a seemingly unpenalized drive found in a reasonable lie. Green design and maintenance are less important to strategy when one is reteeing or pitching out of hay

As for me, I get a lot of 200 yard recoveries-I enjoy carving the ball low, right to left etc.

I certainly hate losing balls.

I think we're saying the same thing in many ways.

I will say I'm not a fan of huge landing areas with lost ball penalties on both sides. example 60 yard fway-10=15 yards rough each side-lost ball.(example many modern native lined courses)
I'd prefer smaller targets (i.e. smaller portions of desireable turf) with the hazards confined to the insides of the corridor, with room for the wayward shot. example-narrower ideal landing area-at times as small as 20-30 yards, protected by bunkers, playable rough, relatively clean woods and or alternate areas of fairway (example Sebonack)

Big World though

[Kevin Lynch]

Heroic shots to me are the one's played on a nice risk/reward par 5 that dares you to bite a bit more off on the tee shot, and then hit a nicely carved three wood a certain shot shape.  Raynor and Dye layouts (the few that I have had the pleasure to play) have plentiful hero shots, either because you play over something (dye) or the green complex is such that you have to play a certain shot shape due to the sharp undulation of the green. 

Regarding the original quote for this thread, I was thinking of Dye for a few examples.  From the several I've played (or seen on TV), I would say Dye definitely designs some holes with a tree in mind.  

Blackwolf Run (River) - #9
http://www.americanclubresort.com/golf/bwr/river_detail.html
The hole features plenty of width and options, but the cluster of trees is the "centerline sky hazard" which provides the options on this short par 4.  

Ocean Course - #3
http://www.kiawahresort.com/golf/the-ocean-course/hole-by-hole-course-tour
Not familiar with this one except from TV and playing WGT.com, but the single Oak Tree demands some precision on an otherwise wide-open fairway.

I don't believe either of these holes would be improved by removal, nor are they excessively one-dimensional.  

However, to show that I'm not excessively "pro-tree", Dye's 13th "Tall Timber" at Blackwolf River is badly in need of a makeover from the firm of Husqvarna, Poulan & Stihl.  The demand to draw a ball off the tee (with River right) is a bit much to ask of the average player.

[Joe Sponcia]

Mr. Lynch

As for not thinking recovery shots from trees are fun - I'm worried you've been too good a player for too long and forgotten the bravado of your early days (as a 1 handicap, you probably play smart and take your medicine).  I'm not burdened by such smart thinking.    I can recall every recovery shot I've made from the trees that have worked, whether it be 1, 2 or 20 years ago.  Those memories last infinitely longer than the quickly-forgotten "hitting 3" scenario.

That one made me chuckle!  I hit fairways and greens.  I have an average short game and am quite average on the greens.  I usually hit the ball straight and don't make big numbers.  The only time I go for anything is when I am playing a member-guest low ball.  I am the epitome of boring when I play.  

[Kevin Lynch]

That one made me chuckle!  I hit fairways and greens.  I have an average short game and am quite average on the greens.  I usually hit the ball straight and don't make big numbers.  The only time I go for anything is when I am playing a member-guest low ball.  I am the epitome of boring when I play.  

I am the epitome of "not you."    While your game is boring, my writing pen name (given to me by others) is "Scrambler," so that may explain our different perceptions.

You probably don't even see those native areas, but they are screaming at me (at least in the 10th hole pic).  Like Jeff, I HATE lost balls more than anything on a golf course, but, given his pedigree, I suspect it's more of an issue for me than him.  

Like I said in other exchanges, I'm all for thinning out trees and making the game more playable, but trees are definitely the lesser evil vs "absolute" hazards like OB, Water and lost-ball rough.  All I want is an option or even the most remote of recovery chances.  I have the creativity to draw up a myriad of recoveries (execution is another story).  Of course, a well-protected or severely sloped green is ideal for rewarding placement, but I think trees (in moderation) can achieve those same goals without the degree of negativity that many seem to convey here.  

[Peter Pallotta]

This thread makes me think that we've all gone crazy; the "tree" has gotten into our heads. I mean, a standard oak, for half its body what is it, 4 feet wide, six feet? And then with the branches all spread out at its widest point, what 30 feet, 10-12 yards wide? And where is this tree, on the edge of the fairway, just off the edge, cutting what, 5 yards off a 40 yard wide fairway? Or say it's smack dab in the middle of the fairway, with a yellow ribbon tied around it (like a tree on a hole on a course near Toronto, Westview, designed by the owner in the 1950s, farmer Pops Nesbitt -- a course that also has a terrific reverse redan -- that sits right there, in the middle of the fairway)? I couldn't hit that damn tree from the tee if someone gave me an unlimited supply of golf balls and eternal life - and yet there I stand on the tee and complain about that tree every single time I play. Mission accomplished, Pops Nesbitt, mission accomplished!

Peter

[Jason Thurman]

Show me a man who says "No architect ever built a single hole with a single tree in mind," and I'll show you a man who has never played an Art Hills course.

However, to show that I'm not excessively "pro-tree", Dye's 13th "Tall Timber" at Blackwolf River is badly in need of a makeover from the firm of Husqvarna, Poulan & Stihl.  The demand to draw a ball off the tee (with River right) is a bit much to ask of the average player.

Shouldn't the average player be playing from the green tees, which are situated well left and don't bring the trees into play? At least that's where they were located the day I played. We all played from the back though, because skipping the tee shot over/around the trees feels like a travesty. It might be a bit odd, but it might also be the most fun shot on a course with a ton of them. There's also plenty of room to bail left and play for bogey.

[Forrest Richardson]

It is a rarity, but a tree can certainly be integrated to a design. I recall a few good examples over the past 30 years. Both of the trees below are gone, but they lasted about 25 years. (One was a giant saguaro cactus that we simply could not move.)

[Thomas Dai]

Didn't they transplant a tree on the 18th at Pebble Beach a few years ago when the previous one became sickly? I think they've moved a few trees at ANGC over the years too.
All the best.

[Jon Wiggett]

Didn't they transplant a tree on the 18th at Pebble Beach a few years ago when the previous one became sickly? I think they've moved a few trees at ANGC over the years too.
All the best.

and wasn't a tree planted between rounds a few years back in the US Open to prevent certain players taking a short cut. However misguided it was, if that isn't a GCA decision then I do not know what is.

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Didn't they transplant a tree on the 18th at Pebble Beach a few years ago when the previous one became sickly? I think they've moved a few trees at ANGC over the years too.
All the best.

and wasn't a tree planted between rounds a few years back in the US Open to prevent certain players taking a short cut. However misguided it was, if that isn't a GCA decision then I do not know what is.
Jon

I remember this. The "Hinkle Tree', named after Lon Hinkle.

Here's a link to the story - http://www.invernessclub.com/Portals/42/course/tour/Hinkle.htm

All the best

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'll go back and probably soften the language tonight.  The statement should probably be "rarely".  I can think of holes myself where trees were left...but we are talking in the 1% range especially with the Ross's, Raynors, and MacDonalds of the world...rare.

Joe,

Donald Ross's work at # 18 at Mountain Ridge would be an exception.
On that hole, the tree was a vital part of the design.

Today, it's an impediment to good golf.

[Mark Steffey]

Thank you Kevin.

[Joe Sponcia]

...I'll pile onto myself. 

Pawleys Plantation, Nicklaus, #9 - 310 yards.  Awful!

[Joe Sponcia]

Same course, different hole!  Pawleys Plantation, Nicklaus, #14, Par 5 - 514 yards





...to add interest over wings at Hooters post-round.

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