The Dye Alps!

[Mark McKeever]

A friend at work dropped off an old Calendar at my desk yesterday.  Being curious about the images inside, I paged through it to see if there was anything interesting.

One that struck me was the 5th at Old Marsh Club in Florida.  It looks like a pretty decent Dye rendition of an Alps hole.  I tried searching for some pictures, but only found a couple decent ones.  

The hole looks like its a short-medium length par 4 with a diagonal carry over a hazard to a very generous fairway.  Then a blind mid-short iron shot over the large Alps mounds to the green.  There is a rock on the top of the mounding that is the approximate line to the pin (which from a wide angle, I wonder how well this actually works).  Overall I think it looks like a pretty neat hole.  Maybe someday I'll get down there and play it.

Has anyone on the board played it?  Thoughts? Comments?

Mark



A picture to give a good idea of how high the Alps mounds are.

[Josh Tarble]

Mark,
I have not played Old Marsh (several members at my club have and love it) but it does seem like Dye will throw out the Alps concept on occasion.  At the Kampen course at Purdue, he has an Alps hole that is as close to an exact replica as can be.  It's roughly 400 yards up the hill and just a beast of a hole, but exactly an Alps copy.  

These photos and descriptions are from David Stewart's IMO piece on Kampen and do a good job of showcasing the hole.


Options abound off the tee. The fairway is about 60 yards wide for those choosing fairway wood or hybrid, but the second shot may be blind. Driver to the narrow portion up the right allows a look at the green, but leaves a poorer angle from the far right side.


Those playing short are left with this approach over the mound with no view of the flagstick.


Those hitting driver to the narrow part of the fairway get a good look at the flag, although with a poor angle to a back right pin.


From behind the green one can see how the large mound dictates the strategy on the hole.

[Matthew Sander]

I love the Kampen hole. It might be my favorite on the course. #3 at Brickyard Crossing is another example, although a bit smaller in scale than the others that have been mentioned.

[Tom ORourke]

I played Old Marsh when it first opened. No houses, not even the clubhouse. A friend of mine was involved in the construction of the course and had played it even before it opened. The mounds make for an interesting hole. The line being quoted back then was that a blind shot is really only a blind shot once, then you know where to go. My friend hit a good drive and just had a wedge going in so it was not too tough. I hooked my tee shot onto the mounds on the left and had to aim it at the water and hit a high hook over the mound, which starts looking pretty high when you have some distance to cover. I thought it was different, and it really puts pressure on the tee shot. If you hit a good tee shot it can be a fun second shot. Anything else means you will have a tough par. Overall I like it. Quirky, yes, but why not? It is not like the hole is 455 yards. It is very playable.

[Tom_Doak]

That hole (and the one that preceded it at Long Cove, and the many more that followed it), was inspired by the 14th at North Berwick, not the Alps at Prestwick.

[Bill_McBride]

That hole (and the one that preceded it at Long Cove, and the many more that followed it), was inspired by the 14th at North Berwick, not the Alps at Prestwick.

I wonder why.  Perfection has a green well above most of the fairway, this one is at the same grade as the fairway.  And there's no intervening bunker.  

[Tommy Williamsen]

I played it many years ago and remember it very well because i didn't know from the tee what to expect.  So I played it again.  I thought it was brilliant.  I still do, even though I have played it a couple more times on other courses.  The hole travels well and I don't mind seeing it in other circumstances.

[Matt Kardash]

Dye at his most bold. His mounding is cool to look at.
It's just a drive and pitch, so it's not too extreme.

[Josh Tarble]

Matt,
I didn't even think of #3 at Brickyard because its so much shorter...but both are really good versions of he concept.

[Anthony_Nysse]

#12 at TPC Sawgrass is another rendition.

[Tom_Doak]

#12 at TPC Sawgrass is another rendition.

Tony:

Not quite.  Mr. Dye wanted to build the 12th at the TPC with the blind approach -- it would have predated the hole at Long Cove by a year or two -- but Commissioner Beman thought the pros would scream bloody murder, and "encouraged" Pete to change the design so that a good drive left a view of the green.

[Tom_Doak]

That hole (and the one that preceded it at Long Cove, and the many more that followed it), was inspired by the 14th at North Berwick, not the Alps at Prestwick.

I wonder why.  Perfection has a green well above most of the fairway, this one is at the same grade as the fairway.  And there's no intervening bunker.  

Bill:

Are we thinking of the same hole?  The Perfection I know has its green lying pretty close to the shore.  You drive it into a narrow fairway short of a ridge with bunkers in the face, and then play blind over the bunkers and back down to the green.  [Downwind, it's possible for good players to drive it over the bunkers, but it is a pretty risky play.]  I'm pretty sure the green is below the fairway, not above, but I've only played it maybe 20 times.  The main difference is that on Pete's hole the green is right over the bunkers, whereas at North Berwick there is a bunch of fairway between the top of the bunkers and the green.

[Ian Andrew]

My favourite hole at Avalon Lakes (Ohio) was the 17th - the water tight to the green was unnerving, but the way the fairway climbed through the gap was very appealing. It was a very interesting hole.

[Thomas Dai]

As to other Alps holes, here is the Alps hole at Tain, the 380 yd par-4 11th. The photo is taken from about 80 yds short of the green. The Dornoch Firth is beyond the green. Although I like the Tain course very much, I don't care particularly for this hole. I'd prefer to see it without the mounds but with a raised green, front corner/side bunker(s) and with a drop-off at the rear. Just IMO.
All the best.

[Charlie_Bell]

I love the look of the Tain hole.  I like the bunker in the middle preventing the mis-hit run-up, and I'd love the anticipation involved with cresting the hill, or circling it, uncertain of my result.  To be rewarded simultaneously with the view the Firth would double the pleasure.

[Bill_McBride]

That hole (and the one that preceded it at Long Cove, and the many more that followed it), was inspired by the 14th at North Berwick, not the Alps at Prestwick.

I wonder why.  Perfection has a green well above most of the fairway, this one is at the same grade as the fairway.  And there's no intervening bunker.  

Bill:

Are we thinking of the same hole?  The Perfection I know has its green lying pretty close to the shore.  You drive it into a narrow fairway short of a ridge with bunkers in the face, and then play blind over the bunkers and back down to the green.  [Downwind, it's possible for good players to drive it over the bunkers, but it is a pretty risky play.]  I'm pretty sure the green is below the fairway, not above, but I've only played it maybe 20 times.  The main difference is that on Pete's hole the green is right over the bunkers, whereas at North Berwick there is a bunch of fairway between the top of the bunkers and the green.

I've played the hole half a dozen times and always seem to hit a short flare to the right off that tee.   Maybe it just seems like the green sits well above that area.   Or maybe I'm mixing it up with 17.   Either way Perfection is part of a great run of holes, 13-17. 

[Joel_Stewart]

A picture to give a good idea of how high the Alps mounds are.

Is it just me or does anyone else find this simply hideous?

[Bryan Izatt]

Joel,

Not hideous, but definitely not naturalistic or minimalistic.


Bill,

A couple of pictures to remind you of Perfection.  As usual, Tom is right.  It would have been more fun if Dye had been inspired to allow the ball to run down the back of the hill to the green a la Perfection.

[Bill_McBride]

Joel,

Not hideous, but definitely not naturalistic or minimalistic.


Bill,

A couple of pictures to remind you of Perfection.  As usual, Tom is right.  It would have been more fun if Dye had been inspired to allow the ball to run down the back of the hill to the green a la Perfection.

Thanks Bryan and Tom, looks like I was thinking more of 17 with its elevated green.  

[Tom_Doak]

Thanks Bryan and Tom, looks like I was thinking more of 17 with its elevated green.  

Yes, you must be.  A short flare to the right off 14 tee puts you onto the 4th green.  I've done that once or twice (at least).

The 17th at North Berwick is one of the most underrated holes in golf.

[David Harshbarger]

A picture to give a good idea of how high the Alps mounds are.

Is it just me or does anyone else find this simply hideous?

Um, yeah? The retaining pond walls with the giant mounds plopped abreast set the context nicely: manufactured golf divorced from any sense of space.  

Probably a pretty good hole given the typical product in this genre, but it's a genre that leaves me cold.

[Bill_McBride]

Thanks Bryan and Tom, looks like I was thinking more of 17 with its elevated green.  

Yes, you must be.  A short flare to the right off 14 tee puts you onto the 4th green.  I've done that once or twice (at least).

The 17th at North Berwick is one of the most underrated holes in golf.

Well actually I have been just above that greenside bunker on 4 a couple of times!   

[Tim Gavrich]

Number 12 at DeBordieu, just south of here in Pawleys Island, is a short par four Dye Alps/Perfection type hole. The hole is only about 350 yards from the back tee with the mini-mountain on the left side. The short iron or wedge after a well-placed tee shot is pretty thrilling. I like the hole and think it fits in very well with the aesthetic palette Dye seems to work with most often on his courses.