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Jeff Bergeron

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Re: Orchard Lake CC (MI) Photos with fescue grown in (More to come)
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2014, 10:59:18 AM »
The course looks very fine. 

Out of curiosity, (using #s 2 & 18 as examples) did the club debate pushing fairway lines around the bunkering? 

Ciao

My recollection is that Keith did not think that was consistent with Allison's philosophy. This was a restoration, true to Allison's principles and original design, obviously with consideration to the modern game.

Niall Hay

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Re: Orchard Lake CC (MI) Photos with fescue grown in (More to come)
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2014, 01:27:43 PM »
Are there any examples in the US (or worldwide) of Alison pushing fairway lines around the bunkering?

Ryan Taylor

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Re: Orchard Lake CC (MI) Photos with fescue grown in (More to come)
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2014, 02:07:38 PM »
Niall,

Check out Milwaukee CC profile within courses by country tab. Many of my tee shots rolled through and into the fairway bunkers when I last played.

Ryan
"Bandon is like Chamonix for skiers or the North Shore of Oahu for surfers,” Rogers said. “It is where those who really care end up."

Jeff Bergeron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Orchard Lake CC (MI) Photos with fescue grown in (More to come)
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2014, 02:33:39 PM »
I'd be careful about concluding anything on Allison's style from Milwaukee. According to the Club's Centennial History, Trent Jones did work there in 1974 and I was told TD undid Jone's work recently . Sadly, there are no early aerials of the Allison course in the book.

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Orchard Lake CC (MI) Photos with fescue grown in (More to come)
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2014, 02:42:56 PM »
Niall,

Check out Milwaukee CC profile within courses by country tab. Many of my tee shots rolled through and into the fairway bunkers when I last played.

Ryan

I love MCC, but not sure that is an Alison bunker...awesome golf course but very different style bunkering.

Aaron McMaster

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Orchard Lake CC (MI) Photos with fescue grown in (More to come)
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2014, 02:50:36 PM »
Niall,

Check out Milwaukee CC profile within courses by country tab. Many of my tee shots rolled through and into the fairway bunkers when I last played.

Ryan

Ryan,

I think Sean was referring to fairway around the entire bunker not just fairway directly to the front bunker edge.  

Keith and I had discussions on this topic and he was fairly firm in his conviction that it's not an Alison look (fairway to front bunker edge).  There is also no doubt it would make, what was already going to be a solid test of golf, significantly more difficult for member play.  There was never a discussion about taking fairway all the way around any fairway bunkers.

If you look in the picture tour before the renovation....I believe Mark Saltzman did it, there is a 1940's aerial and almost all fairway bunkers were outside the gang mow lines for fairway bunkers.

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Orchard Lake CC (MI) Photos with fescue grown in (More to come)
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2014, 03:20:37 PM »
Where do Alison’s Kirtland CC (Cleveland) bunkers fit in this discussion?

Ryan Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Orchard Lake CC (MI) Photos with fescue grown in (More to come)
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2014, 03:39:09 PM »
Fair enough! Looking forward to learning more about Alison's original philosophy.
"Bandon is like Chamonix for skiers or the North Shore of Oahu for surfers,” Rogers said. “It is where those who really care end up."

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Orchard Lake CC (MI) Photos with fescue grown in (More to come)
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2014, 08:00:28 PM »
Niall,

Check out Milwaukee CC profile within courses by country tab. Many of my tee shots rolled through and into the fairway bunkers when I last played.

Ryan

Ryan,

I think Sean was referring to fairway around the entire bunker not just fairway directly to the front bunker edge.  

Keith and I had discussions on this topic and he was fairly firm in his conviction that it's not an Alison look (fairway to front bunker edge).  There is also no doubt it would make, what was already going to be a solid test of golf, significantly more difficult for member play.  There was never a discussion about taking fairway all the way around any fairway bunkers.

If you look in the picture tour before the renovation....I believe Mark Saltzman did it, there is a 1940's aerial and almost all fairway bunkers were outside the gang mow lines for fairway bunkers.

Aaron

Thank you.  I am trying to get a feeling as to why I see so many American parkland courses do the fairway squeeze especially just shy of greens.  I don't really know how Alison envisioned the cut line of his fairways, but I expect a reasonable answer can be found with survey of near period aerials of Alison N American designs. I do notice in the old aerial that many OLCC bunkers do eat into fairways and some are surrounded by short grass.  I find it very interesting that you  think OLCC would be more difficult with (more?) fairway fronted bunkers.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Orchard Lake CC (MI) Photos with fescue grown in (More to come)
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2014, 08:23:14 PM »
Fair enough! Looking forward to learning more about Alison's original philosophy.

All these influences contributed to the Alison style, a style that did feature very deep bunkers. Not only were his bunkers deep – both greenside and fairway – they were also very large in scale. Alison’s greenside bunkers were frequently as large as the greens they guarded. He often elevated the green well above the approaching fairway or tee, bunkers were then cut well below the elevation, in effect increasing their depth. Fairway bunkers were placed against or below mounding, also increasing their effective depth. And he was not opposed to an occasional forced carry — usually with bunkers set at a diagonal, allowing for choice and rewarding the bold play.

Greenside mounds would often encroach upon the putting surfaces. This was Alison’s preferred method of creating undulations in his greens, extending and merging either natural undulations or mounds on to the green surfaces. And like many designers his greens were oriented to one side or the other through the placement of greenside hazards or pronounced contours, rewarding those who chose the best angle of attack (occasionally the center was the preferred approach). Another common device was the tilting of his greens sideways — an approach from the wrong angle or one poorly struck would fall away.

Alison's sketch and notes guiding the proper construction of a bunker.

Alison wrote very detailed descriptions of how his design features should appear. His mounding was to have a ‘broken horizon’, and his bunkers were to have the sand ‘splashed’ up to point where it met a band native soil and the grass of the mound. He referred to this meeting of sand and grass as ‘rivetting’ – although he did not use the term in its classic sense – and it was to have an uneven outline. (Many of his bunkers in the US now have grass facing, with little or no flashing and are very regular in outline) In his construction notes he constantly uses the term ‘irregularizing’ — a clear acknowledgment of the irregularity found in nature. Although Alison often created features that were clearly artificial there is something aesthetically pleasing about them; he had a gift for creating man-made features that sympathized with the natural.
 
Example: The par-3 7th at Hirono.

 Source: Tom MacWood RIP