News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jon Byron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom Doak CommonGround Golf Course in Denver Colorado
« on: June 30, 2013, 08:51:46 PM »
Played it yesterday at 4pm.  A wonderful Tom Doak course, remarkable in many respects. 18 great holes, and in great condition. And the weather in Denver was fine. Fun and challenging course. Three comments - very slow play (5 hrs.), way too many "cart-ballers" in way too many carts (and this is as walkable a course as any course on planet earth), and they are planting trees (!!!) - I guess to block the beautiful view of the surrounding mountains!  But nevertheless it is a course to play.
Haven't played since yesterday, not playing until tomorrow, hardly playing at all!

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Tom Doak CommonGround Golf Course in Denver Colorado
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2013, 09:21:22 PM »
I don't really understand being bothered if people in other groups choose to play the game differently than you. I do #SMH when I see all the people riding in carts on the par 3 course next to my mother's house when I drive by, but it's never surprising to me when I see a course full of guys in carts, and it certainly doesn't have to affect me negatively at all.

I liked CommonGround. It's a very good and strategic public course and a nice value. I found it a bit formulaic in spots (it seemed like a lot of holes had the same basic playing strategy). I also didn't love the aesthetic of the course. It seemed like a cross between parkland and linksy feeling in spots and the trees mixed with some very open views just felt... uncohesive, for some reason. I can actually imagine some tree planting out there as an improvement in this area, if done correctly.

Still, it's about as good as it gets at that price point and a wonderful facility for the city of Denver. I love courses that are assets to the spirit of the game, and I think inexpensive public facilities that are walkable, challenging for every type of player, and friendly for children are the best example of that.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak CommonGround Golf Course in Denver Colorado
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2013, 10:08:55 PM »
Jason's critique is more in depth than mine, which is that CG is fun, accessible golden age inspired design that balances challenge and forgiveness.

I enjoyed the course start to finish.

Jason, what basic strategy did you feel was repeated too much?
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak CommonGround Golf Course in Denver Colorado
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2013, 10:36:36 PM »
I liked CommonGround. It's a very good and strategic public course and a nice value. I found it a bit formulaic in spots (it seemed like a lot of holes had the same basic playing strategy). I also didn't love the aesthetic of the course. It seemed like a cross between parkland and linksy feeling in spots and the trees mixed with some very open views just felt... uncohesive, for some reason. I can actually imagine some tree planting out there as an improvement in this area, if done correctly.

Jason,

Remember that CommonGround was built on the site of a previous course and on a budget.  I'm guessing Doak and Renaissance didn't have a lot of funds to devote to reworking the "aesthetic of the course," as you define it.  Also, Denver is basically flat and has a lot of planted trees in the center of the city so, if that's the aesthetic of CommonGround, it's fitting for Denver. 

Jon,

Five hours is too long but you were teeing off in the afternoon at a public course on a Saturday.  Hopefully a weekend morning time at CommonGround would at least be closer to 4 1/2. 

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Tom Doak CommonGround Golf Course in Denver Colorado
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2013, 12:01:27 AM »
Tim, I understand the tight-ish budget on which CommonGround was built. Like every other course, the final product is the result of a design team, a property owner, a site with benefits and drawbacks, and a budget. This forum is dedicated to the frank discussion of golf course architecture, which ultimately distills to a discussion of those four components. For whatever reason though, when a Doak course is discussed and anyone points out a drawback, there's a rush to make excuses on the course's behalf.

CommonGround is a very nice public golf facility and a major asset to the Denver community. It has a very interesting set of greens, consistently strategic holes, a very walkable routing, and provides an enjoyable challenge to everyone from the beginners it welcomes to the US Amateur competitors it tested. It has many strengths along with a few weaknesses, as I mentioned before. Again, I found it aesthetically uncohesive. I've played LOTS of courses designed on a budget that I can't say the same about. Something about the trees, shaping, and hole corridors at CommonGround just looked "off" to me. It seemed like there was a lot of width and a nice rawness to the bunker shaping that contrasted too sharply with the starchly defined edges of holes lined by what were usually fairly small trees. The natural presentation of the course against the obvious hand of man in its surroundings was jarring. The large engineered ridge to the right of 11 and 12 is similarly at odds with the shaping of the course. There are plenty of reasons why the surroundings are as they are, and it's not surprising that the design team didn't have free rein to blow up a manmade ridge surrounding the course and chop down all the trees that had been planted on the property in the last 50 years. I also think the shaping is of high quality and the corridors have a scale and width that fits the mountainous backdrop. Most of my criticism is centered on areas of the course that the design team probably either didn’t have the option of touching or chose not to prioritize based on budget constrictions. But if we care about jarring aesthetics on Dye and RTJ courses, we have to at least acknowledge that they exist on Doak courses too.

Have you played the course? What are your feelings on its aesthetic presentation?

David, I thought there were a lot of dogleg holes that turned around a bunker or other feature, usually at a similar distance from the tee. This is obviously a fundamental strategy that produces quality golf, but like anything else, it can be overdone. I see it at 1, 4, 7, 13, 15, and 16. That’s almost half the non-par-3 holes on the course.

In contrast, I look at a course like Tim Liddy’s The Trophy Club outside of Indianapolis. It’s a similarly playable but challenging course with Golden Age principles, built on a budget and available to play at a similar price point. Like CommonGround, it’s highly strategic, but its strategy varies far more from hole to hole. It features dogleg corner carry bunkers/hazards like CommonGround on holes like 3, 5, 13, and 15. It features waste areas or other lateral hazards guarding the preferred side of the fairway on holes like 1, 7, 12, and 16. It features alternate-route holes like 2, 10, and 11. And it features centerline hazards in the driving zone on several holes. It’s a spectacularly creative, fun course and about as interesting off the tee as any course I’ve played. I’d have liked to have seen more variability and creativity employed with the hazard placement and shot demands from the tee at CommonGround as well.

I don’t want anyone to think I don’t like CommonGround. It’s an excellent facility and the type of golf this country needs more of.  When Pete Dye designs fun, accessible courses that balance challenge and forgiveness on a budget, they generate frank discussion on this forum. I’d like to see us do the same even with our favorite designers.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Tom Doak CommonGround Golf Course in Denver Colorado
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2013, 12:07:45 AM »
David, one thing I'll add. I saw your criticism of World Woods Pine Barrens in the Fazio's Best thread. I haven't played that course, but your review struck me as interesting. When you said it seemed "soulless," my first thought was CommonGround and the holes that, while good, felt a bit too formulaic for me. It was striking, then, when you used CommonGround as an example of a contrasting course in the same post.

I would guess the course just played a bit differently for us, or we find "soul" on the ground in different places.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak CommonGround Golf Course in Denver Colorado
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2013, 10:57:29 AM »
Jason,

I've played CommonGround many times.  I'm not sure I understand your strategy critique--holes 1, 4, 7, 13, 15, and 16 have a bunker or other feature that may come into play off the tee, but that's not the dominant strategic consideration on several of these holes.  For example, ##4 and 13 don't really turn around a bunker or other hazard that one may take on off the tee.  The question on #4 is whether to take dead aim at the green (and risk a pull into the deep rough or driving into a greenside bunker) or lay up some measure to the right.  On #13, the bunker on the right on the inside of the dogleg (to the extent it is a dogleg) isn't the main hazard--the small centerline bunker to the left is.  I don't see an inside of the dogleg hazard driving the strategy on these holes, or on ## 1 or 15 (which both feature bunkers that longer hitters may be enticed to take on but probably shouldn't).  You're right, though, that the challenges at CommonGround are generally found more around the greens than off the tees.  

I understand your aesthetic critique to a point.  SE Denver/Aurora isn't very scenic.  No one goes to the corner of Alameda and Havana for a stroll.  Perhaps I'm willing to grade more on a curve than you are.  I don't hold the fact there's an unsightly (I wouldn't say "jarring") berm in the vicinity against the course.  I do appreciate the distant views of downtown and the Front Range.  I actually view its hybrid parkland-linksish status as a plus.  It's unique to the area.  Of course it wouldn't matter much if the strategic design fell flat, but luckily Doak and Co. created enough interest, largely through the greensites and bunkering, to ensure an enjoyable round.  

I'm glad you appreciate the course.  Unfortunately, I haven't played the Trophy Club so can't compare and contrast.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 11:00:57 AM by Tim Pitner »

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak CommonGround Golf Course in Denver Colorado
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2013, 12:02:20 AM »
Jason,

Funny we saw different things at CommonGround.  To me the CommonGround holes were strategically accessible and engaging.  Does that mean formulaic? To me, that meant a course that existed to give a high quality thinking golf experience to the public, to beginners, and to youth, and from that sprung the soul. 

Yeah, the berm looms over the course, but it's not like one expects the Pacific.  It is what it is. And the views of the mountains soon return.

Regarding World Woods, I think I am out of step with the masses. But then I think what I'm trying to capture in essence is a feeling about a course for which I'm not able to find the words.

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak CommonGround Golf Course in Denver Colorado
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2013, 07:11:27 AM »
The natural presentation of the course against the obvious hand of man in its surroundings was jarring. The large engineered ridge to the right of 11 and 12 is similarly at odds with the shaping of the course.

It's that juxtaposition that accentuates the natural. No better example then when standing on 12 tee. Very cool spiritual spot.

Since the design team was channeling a Dye/Raynoresque ethos, on a sheit site, I'd say they put all the "professionals" that suggested wasting the $4 million on a clubhouse to shame.

My only criticism, I would ask about, is the left fairway bunker on 9. Is it only there to balance the visual? Strategically, I found it antithetical.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle